Comparison between Lorien and ... Lucifer?

[The Living Tarim]

Sorry if this has already been debated to death before, but...

After recently reviewing my B5 DVD's, I began to wonder about the nature of Lorien. My wonderings started drawing parallels with, of all things, Lucifer. Given what he says about who/what he is, why he is at Z'ha'dum and what the Shadows think they are doing for him, it started to sound like he may be JMS's spin on what the character of Lucifer might be, as opposed to Satan (adversary and Manichean figure in Christianity).

Has this all been hashed out before? If so, would someone be kind enough to point me to a site that discussed this?

Thanks,

TLT

[circularREASON]

Lucifer as in a fallen angel?

Can't see it myself.

[Dr Maturin]

Hilariously, when I first showed my mom season 4, she kept asking "Is he The Devil?" of Lorien.

He DOES have this subtle, eerie "I Am Being Nice But I Am Going To Gut You Any Minute Now" feel to him.

[The Living Tarim]

Okay,

Specifically, then...

1. Lorien explains, or rather suggests, that he is the first "creature", created by the Universe itself.
1a. JMS seems to use the Universe as a "god" surrogate. And, according to Judeo-Christian (well, perhaps more Christian) tradition, the first creature was Lucifer.

2. Lorien lives underground at Z'ha'dum. The Dantean (or earlier, I don't really know) idea of Hell as the abode of Lucifer is underground. Add to that, that it is underground on the planet of "Eeevil."

3. Lorien claims that the Shadows think they do him honor, suggesting that the Shadows revere him (or think they do, anyway), like worshippers or servants. And as the Shadows are presented as "demonic" or at least chaotic, their lord parallels Lucifer (okay, Satan really...but the fact that Lorien doesn't appear to buy into it suggests to me that he would be more like Lucifer than Satan).

At least ZD's mom might not think me crazy...

[Smudger]

Sorry but you've got your timelines wrong wrt Christianity. Lucifier was not the first being, that was God (Look up Genesis). Lucifer was however one of The Almighty's favourites amongst the angels! Unfortunately, he got a bit big for his boots and challenged the Great Makers authority, afterwhich he was banished from Heaven down into the pit - Hell to you and me (see below).

The references to Satan begin in the New Testament, most biblical scholars believe that Satan (or Santa - as dyslexic devil worshippers know him) and Lucifer are in fact the same character.

Oh, and if you want a reference, this is from the Old Testament in the King James version of the Bible......

Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy comingàHow art thou fallen from heaven, O Luciferàthou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (Isaiah 14:9-16 KJV)

So no I don't think Lorien has any link with Old Nick!

Blimey, where else but on a B5 board could you have a conversation like this????

[The Living Tarim]

I didn't make something clear on the onset: my intent was to treat Lucifer as a character, distinct from Satan as a character. To wit:

Lucifer: "light bearer," traditionally the first being created by God (assuming God as Creator and not created). see http://www.bartleby.com/65/lu/Lucifer.html

Satan: "adversary", lord of Hell, demons, and opponent of God and all that is good.
see http://www.bartleby.com/65/sa/Satan.html

It seems to me that many of the ideas of "The Enemy", "Old Nick", "Scratch", what-have-you, are all variations on the Satan idea rather than the Lucifer idea. In this light, I'm not comparing Lorien to Satan, Beelzebub, guys in red pajamas with comical forks, and that like.

[Dr Maturin]

Interesting, Tarim.

<<Sorry but you've got your timelines wrong wrt Christianity. Lucifier was not the first being, that was God (Look up Genesis).>>

Well, I kind of think he meant first AFTER God (the universe)? At least that's what I got out of Tarim's analysis.

And Smudger, while Lucifer and Satan are one in the same, there was a transfiguration there, at least in character. Lucifer is a fallen angel, like Darth Vader. I don't think Tarim was attempting to say Satan and Lucifer are not the same.

[A'ssaEl]

Acutaly, Tarim might be correct with his thoughts

In Aramic, Lucifer's name: "light bearer" ("Ben Shachar") can be translated to english as also "The son of Dawn" which does imply that it was a first creation in the first dawn (of Gensis creation days).
But that's not the point.
The point is that everything it reveals about itself does seem to match: Being cast out to the underground because of a missunderstandment, Being the first one etc...

Now since JMS does insert a lot (and I mean a lot) of biblical methaphores inside most of his works (i.e Jeremiah) and the fact that he enjoy playing with legends and myths I would say there is a good chance it has connection.

Take in notice that b5 is a dark sci-fi where you might sympethize with the bad guys and understand why things happened when the way they did (example: Garibaldi's betrayl to Sheriden - 4th season - just to find out that he was brainwashed).

In the buttom line - It is all open for interpretations just like the bible....

[colonyearth]

While JMS does use a great deal of mythology and legend, as well as other sources such as great literature and philosophy in his writing, I've never gotten the impression that Lorien was in any way intended to be Lucifer.

There may be some slight elements of the story of Lucifer utilized JMS style in the story of Lorien, I simply cannot see that that is who JMS was actually in any way insinuating Lorien was even remotely Lucifer-esque.

Also, while JMS uses Biblical myth in B5, he also uses almost every other religion known to man at some point or another. In fact, though some of the religions used are no longer in practice today, JMS has noted himself that he has been thanked by religious leaders from varying current beliefs for his gracious and respectful depictions of religious beliefs in B5, while still saying what he wanted to say.

And that is....if you search B5 you will find JMS's thoughts and feelings on cosmology and religion shine through. JMS is an atheist.

Lorien was not meant to be Lucifer, but was in fact "the first one." Period. Both the Shadows and the Vorlons held him in very high regard (as well as the other ancient races).

Lorien stated that the Shadows kept coming to Z'ha'dum because he was there.

If you watch closely in the end, both the Vorlons and Shadows wanted to know if they had done well. Lorien told them they had both done fine, but it was time to leave.

If you must needs compare Lorien to anyone within the religious pantheon, he is best compared in many ways to God. He gives life, he clearly has the ability to "see" what's going on. Yet unlike any God in current theologies, he does have limitations.

The Shadows engrained in the younger races the image of demon-like creatures, while the Vorlons engrained in them that they were beings of light and good.

JMS is showing you a logical cosmology to him. That our religions are youthful attempts (at least youthful within the scope of the time and the universe) to explain races, technology, and philosophies far beyond our comprehension. Those attempts by us have become the various religions, and none of them has the complete truth.

It is the lack of complete truth while still containing elements of it that causes JMS to show immense respect to all religions. For within each is a piece of the larger puzzle that is still beyond our vision.

This cosmology laid down by JMS in B5 has actually caused many B5 fans to call themselves Straczynskians, since he so clearly, logically, and eloquently put into words in B5 what they thought and believed...what makes the most sense (at least for now).

I could go on and on about this...I've had many long and philosophical discussions with friends and scholars on the subject. But this will suffice for now.

BTW, I just watched the episode where Kosh was killed again...and even more of it became crystal clear to me. Ideas and elements that, as many times as I've seen the entire series, I still didn't "get" before.

Yet one more thing I love about Babylon 5.

JMS believes that we make our own future. He believes that "What is built...endures. What is loved...endures. And [well] Babylon 5...Babylon 5...endures."

Peace,
CE

[grumbler]

Tarim, I think you re on to something, at least as regards the archetype of the "god" who gets "punished" for providing the mortals with knowledge. Lucifer and Prometheus spring to mind. Lorien isn't punished by a concious "god" but it is clear that his quest to help others has made him a very sad being, because he sees in the mortals what he and his kind no longer have - hope, love, and a sense that a being can make a difference.

And I do understand your distinction between Lucifer and Satan - Lucifer being the older "charactor" that was subsumed in the Christian (and, partly, the Jewish) traditions by Satan.

[Andrew_Swallow]

Lorien may be based on a character in the Babylonian myths. Another alternative is the Greek god Kronos (Cronus in latin), the father of Zeus or his father Uranus.

[Dr Maturin]

CE, yes, I got a very humanistic feeling from the ending of the Shadow War.

[circularREASON]

My impression of Lorien was that he was someone who had created something wonderful, only to watch it crumble around him into anarchy and chaos. (Much as Sheridan watched as the Alliance went to war with the Centauri against his wishes. He knew the consequences of their actions but they didn't listen.)

''I warned the others but they didn't listen. They never Listened''
(WHTMG?)

He had lost everything which to him was dear. His own race had died off, or gone beyond the rim. He was alone. A voice of infinate Sadness, but also experience and Wisdom.

Both the Shadows and Vorlons revered him.. Perhaps to them he was their Sheridan figure, or even their GOD. He did not take sides. He clearly did not like what was going on but stayed out of obligation, and the promise that he and the Vorlons and Shadows would be set free eventually by the younger races when they reached the correct level of understanding.

Lucifer? More like an extension of GOD. (Don't forget he created a body for Sheridans soul to travel in. His real body remained buried at Z'ha'dum )

[Smudger]

My impression was that Lorien was the first, i.e. the first being/entity/deity/etc. The fact that the Shadows always returned to Za'Ha'Dum backs up the premise that they thought of him 'almost' as their God. Plus the Vorlons tended to follow his advise as well.

As always, I think it's hats off to JMS for stimulating this sort of tangental discussion from his story. How many storylines from ST would or could?

[Bonehead]

I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

He seized the dragon, the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole inhabited earth, and bound him for a thousand years.

And cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were finished.

After this he must be freed for a short timeà..

The Bible
Book of Revelations chapters 20:1-3

Interesting that the Shadows return every thousand years. I see the Shadows as Satan and Lorien as the angel guarding over them.