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  • unclear things in B5 universe

    I just finished reading Chronologies, and I have some things that are quite unclear to me... Can someone answer me few problems that I encountered so far? Thanks

    Problem 1:

    In Babylon 5 Official Magazine volume 2, issue 10, in article "The Great Machine" by Fiona Avery, there is stated this: "By 2279, Franklin has analyzed the Keeper that he and Marcus found on Captain Jack on their trip to Mars. He has discovered a way to remove the keeper from its host without damaging the host's nervous system in the process. So There is a way to remove the Keeper from David by this point".
    Is that correct? Because I've read Legions of Fire: Out of the Darkness and I think that there was stated, that Franklin was NOT able to remove the Keeper from David unless he would kill him in the process.


    Problem 2:

    Where was Morden before the Icarus mission? According to The Shadow Within, he was on Station Prime near Centauri Prime, and went away on Icarus from there. But according to Deadly Relations: Bester Ascendant, he was on Ganymede and Icarus stopped there to get him on board.


    Problem 3:

    In "B5 comics #1: In Darkness Find Me", there is stated that Sinclair left Earth for Minbar on Earth Alliance Shuttle named Icarus. But in "Across Time and Space: The Chronologies of Babylon 5", on the page #157 there is stated: "Jeffrey Sinclair leaves for Minbar abroad the cruiser Solaris to take up his role as Earth Ambassador". Which is correct? Did I missed something?


    Problem 4:

    About Technomages - have Gwynn, Finian and Kane (Legions of Fire trilogy) been with other Technomages in hiding place? Because according Chronologies, they haven't been there and while they were on Centauri Prime, Galen was still in hiding place. So where where they?


    Problem 5:

    It is said, that Franklin and G'Kar went beyond the Rim - how it is possible that they returned? Because I thought that only being capable of traveling from one side to other is Lorien.
    "I pledge my body, heart, soul, and mind to the service of Earth Alliance,and the people who dwell on her myriad spheres.I promise to keep the laws,to keep the faith, to keep my eyes on the truth.I pledge to serve my comrades, my cadre, and the Corps. The Corps teaches,guides, and provides. The Corps is mother, the Corps is father. We are the children of the Corps"

  • #2
    Originally posted by Hipapheralkuspo View Post
    Problem 5:

    It is said, that Franklin and G'Kar went beyond the Rim - how it is possible that they returned? Because I thought that only being capable of traveling from one side to other is Lorien.
    The term "beyond the rim" has come to mean a couple of things in the B5 universe, one physical, one metaphorical.

    First is the physical 'rim of explored space' or 'rim of the galaxy' which changes as more is explored. As you recall, Captain Maynard and his ship the Cortez were out on the rim installing jump gates.

    Second is the metaphorical 'beyond the Rim' which is similar to the Minbari 'Going to the sea' to die, or going away, never to be seen again.

    The Shadows and Vorlons and other First Ones went away, never to be seen again into the vast unexplored spaces betweeen galaxies but it was only a one-way trip because they wished it.

    As for Franklin and G'Kar, in the mini-comic it's said that
    Explorers who later reached the edge of the Galactic Rim, the border between what's known, and what's not, find that over a dozen different worlds, each with their own histories and languages, shared two words in common. Franklin...and G'Kar.
    The comic works on two levels since in the show we know that they did come back from the Rim. In real life, though, their going Beyond the Rim was a way of acknowledging the loss of the actors who played them and of explaining why, if there were other B5 stories in the future, they wouldn't feature those characters.

    Jan
    "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

    Comment


    • #3
      So 'rim of explored space' - can it be also Vorlon Space? Because it is unexplored to us

      EDIT:

      Problem 6:
      In the book Babylon 5: Asked & Answered, Part 1, there is a question (on page 171) if Valen had any children and JMS answered: "Valen did not have any children". This is quite confusing to me, since I thought that he had children with Cantherine Sakai...
      Last edited by Hipapheralkuspo; 06-15-2009, 03:34 AM.
      "I pledge my body, heart, soul, and mind to the service of Earth Alliance,and the people who dwell on her myriad spheres.I promise to keep the laws,to keep the faith, to keep my eyes on the truth.I pledge to serve my comrades, my cadre, and the Corps. The Corps teaches,guides, and provides. The Corps is mother, the Corps is father. We are the children of the Corps"

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Hipapheralkuspo View Post
        Because I've read Legions of Fire: Out of the Darkness and I think that there was stated, that Franklin was NOT able to remove the Keeper from David unless he would kill him in the process.
        The way to remove the Keeper that Franklin discovered was to kill the parent Drakh.

        Originally posted by Hipapheralkuspo View Post
        Where was Morden before the Icarus mission? According to The Shadow Within, he was on Station Prime near Centauri Prime, and went away on Icarus from there. But according to Deadly Relations: Bester Ascendant, he was on Ganymede and Icarus stopped there to get him on board.
        I would go with the Psi Corps trilogy on this one, since it was based on jms' notes, but he could have gone from Station Prime to Ganymede to the Icarus.

        Originally posted by Hipapheralkuspo View Post
        In "B5 comics #1: In Darkness Find Me", there is stated that Sinclair left Earth for Minbar on Earth Alliance Shuttle named Icarus. But in "Across Time and Space: The Chronologies of Babylon 5", on the page #157 there is stated: "Jeffrey Sinclair leaves for Minbar abroad the cruiser Solaris to take up his role as Earth Ambassador". Which is correct? Did I missed something?
        I'd go with the comic, since that's the actual event in print. The chronology has some errors here and there and its source is the comic anyway I would think.

        Originally posted by Hipapheralkuspo View Post
        About Technomages - have Gwynn, Finian and Kane (Legions of Fire trilogy) been with other Technomages in hiding place? Because according Chronologies, they haven't been there and while they were on Centauri Prime, Galen was still in hiding place. So where where they?
        I got the impression they were in their own hiding place, but I don't think that it's ever explicitly stated where the Cloister Mages were.

        Originally posted by Hipapheralkuspo View Post
        So 'rim of explored space' - can it be also Vorlon Space? Because it is unexplored to us
        No, Vorlon space is within the Rim. If Vorlon space was past the Rim, we wouldn't have any reason to kick them out in "Into the Fire."

        Originally posted by Hipapheralkuspo View Post
        In the book Babylon 5: Asked & Answered, Part 1, there is a question (on page 171) if Valen had any children and JMS answered: "Valen did not have any children".
        He said that Valen didn't have children because he didn't want to blow a later story line before it came to pass on the show; trying to keep things secret before they were revealed. The big reveal in this case was "Atonement" when it's discovered that human DNA has been intermixed with Minbari DNA for centuries.
        Last edited by JoeD80; 06-15-2009, 10:47 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          The way to remove the Keeper that Franklin discovered was to kill the parent Drakh.
          I know how he ultimately managed to do it, but I doubt that he learned it from that dead Keeper from Captain Jack. If I recall correctly, that idea striked him in Out of the Darkness, but no sooner.


          I would go with the Psi Corps trilogy on this one, since it was based
          on jms' notes, but he could have gone from Station Prime to Ganymede to the Icarus.
          No, it didn't happened that way. In the Shadow Within, there is a detailed description that he and Anna Sheridan are boarding Icarus from Station Prime.
          "I pledge my body, heart, soul, and mind to the service of Earth Alliance,and the people who dwell on her myriad spheres.I promise to keep the laws,to keep the faith, to keep my eyes on the truth.I pledge to serve my comrades, my cadre, and the Corps. The Corps teaches,guides, and provides. The Corps is mother, the Corps is father. We are the children of the Corps"

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Hipapheralkuspo View Post
            I just finished reading Chronologies, and I have some things that are quite unclear to me... Can someone answer me few problems that I encountered so far? Thanks

            Problem 1:

            In Babylon 5 Official Magazine volume 2, issue 10, in article "The Great Machine" by Fiona Avery, there is stated this: "By 2279, Franklin has analyzed the Keeper that he and Marcus found on Captain Jack on their trip to Mars. He has discovered a way to remove the keeper from its host without damaging the host's nervous system in the process. So There is a way to remove the Keeper from David by this point".
            Is that correct? Because I've read Legions of Fire: Out of the Darkness and I think that there was stated, that Franklin was NOT able to remove the Keeper from David unless he would kill him in the process.
            Legions of Fire Book III "Out of the Darkness" ended in 2278 (actually, probably in 2277, given that Peter David screwed up the year dates starting with December 14, 2267 on page 1 of Legions of Fire Book II - Armies of Light and Dark.). The date on that page should have been December 14, 2266, to match A Call to Arms. The battle in that TV movie took place on the fifth anniversary of the Interstellar Alliance. Since the IA was formed in January 2262, the fifth anniversary would take place in January 2267. The Drakh test of the Shadow Death Cloud on Daltron 7 (Legions of Fire Book II, page 61) would have taken place in December 2266.

            So....

            In 2277 or 2278, Garibaldi and Vir killed Shiv'Kala, and that got the Keeper off of David Sheridan. Dr. Franklin was there to see it, David and the dead Keeper (Legions of Fire Book III, pages 261 & 262).

            If in 2279, Dr. Franklin had discovered a way to remove a Keeper from its host without damaging the host's nervous system in the process (actually killing the host.), the knowledge came too late to be of use on David Sheridan's Keeper.


            Originally posted by Hipapheralkuspo View Post
            Problem 4:

            About Technomages - have Gwynn, Finian and Kane (Legions of Fire trilogy) been with other Technomages in hiding place? Because according Chronologies, they haven't been there and while they were on Centauri Prime, Galen was still in hiding place. So where where they?
            The Passing of the Technomages trilogy covers November 2258 to ~May 2261 (The Passing of the Technomages Book III, page 347 bottom, The Shadow War is over. So it's ~May 2261.). During that time, Galen was out getting experience, fighting the Shadows and Drakh, not in hiding (like Kane, The Passing of the Technomages Book III, page 342). In May 2261, Galen is back in the hiding place, keeping an eye on things in the galaxy in the Mage's Observation Room. At that point, Galen can come and go as he pleases (The Passing of the Technomages Book III, page 355, middle). From the time the mages reached the hiding place to May 2261, Kane, Gwynne and Finian never left it. They were cloister mages.

            In Legions of Fire Book I, page 141 (date somewhere between 2262 and 2266, probably around 2264.), Kane, and presumably Gwynne and Finian are out of the hiding place. Kane is on B5 saving Vir.

            In Legions of Fire Book II, page 59, December 2266, Galen is on K0643 destroying the K0643-to-Xha'dam Shadow jumpgate right after Gwynne, Finian and Vir's ship escapes through it.

            In A Call to Arms and Crusade, Galen is not in the hiding place. Instead he is flitting between the Excalibur (Crusade) and K0643, Centauri Prime, etc.

            Kane, Gwynne and Finian (among others) were mages of Galens, Isabelle's, Elizar's and Razeel's initiation class. They all got their Full Mage tech together (at the same convocation in late November 2258). Kane, Gwynne and Finian are still considered to be initiates because they have not been out getting real world experience like Galen has. Instead, they've been in the hiding place, and that's why they're called cloister mages. Mages are considered initiates for their first three years of practice out in the world, after receiving their full mage tech. After the mages made it to the hiding place, only Galen (on missions from The Circle), Kell (resigned from the Circle in Dec. 2258.) and Federico (Sent to get Galen. The Passing of the Technomages Book III, page 332.) left the hiding place. Elizar and Razeel never went to the hiding place.
            Mac Breck (KoshN)
            ------------------
            Warner Brothers is Lucy.
            JMS and we fans are collectively Charlie Brown.
            Babylon 5 is the football.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by KoshN View Post
              Legions of Fire Book III "Out of the Darkness" ended in 2278 (actually, probably in 2277, given that Peter David screwed up the year dates starting with December 14, 2267 on page 1 of Legions of Fire Book II - Armies of Light and Dark.).
              The book has 2277 for the urn presentation and jms said 2278:

              Originally posted by jms
              As Londo states, his situation in WWE2 (Sheridan and Delenn captured on Centauri Prime) takes place 18 years after the events in 2260, which would put it at 2278. The urn, given to Sheridan in 2262, is supposed to be given to the heir at the occasion of his/her 16th birthday, by Centauri tradition.

              That would put the urn presentation at...ding!...2278.
              So the date in this case is shifted the other way; with David's keeper's removal in 2278 in the book, that would be shifted to 2279 going by jms' comments of when he received it.
              Last edited by JoeD80; 06-17-2009, 10:50 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Regardless, it is possible that Dr. Franklin's knowledge of how to remove a keeper without harming its host, could have come months, weeks or days too late to be of benefit to David Sheridan.


                While looking that stuff up, I came upon the instance of Londo, in a drunken stupor, defending a fallen (unconscious) Vir from Shiv'kala (who had ordered Vir''s execution.). If Londo had cut Shiv'kala in half with the sword, as he was threatening to do, slashing the blade at Shiv'kala, Londo's keeper would have died right then and there when Shiv'kala died, and Londo would have been free. If Londo had only known how close he was. IIRC, this was before the Drakh had planted fusion bombs all around Centauri Prime.
                Mac Breck (KoshN)
                ------------------
                Warner Brothers is Lucy.
                JMS and we fans are collectively Charlie Brown.
                Babylon 5 is the football.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KoshN View Post
                  IIRC, this was before the Drakh had planted fusion bombs all around Centauri Prime.
                  The fusion bombs were planted in season 5 before he received the keeper (The Fall of Centauri Prime). It was one of the reasons Londo accepted the keeper, because Shiv'kala would set them off then and there if he didn't. Vir's execution orders didn't come until later after Sheridan and Delenn received the urn.
                  Last edited by JoeD80; 06-18-2009, 12:31 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Some of these problems can only be answered by saying that the only thing that is 100% canon is the actual series. And personally, I'm fine with that.
                    Jonas Kyratzes | Lands of Dream

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Another unclear thing - what happend to Laurel Takashima?

                      I know it would have been revealed that she was part of the conspiracy to assassinate Kosh, but since she never appeared in the series what happend to her?

                      I know JMS mentioned her being reassigned somewhere on the Rim doing something hush-hush. Perhaps negotiating with the Shadows on behalf of Vice-President Clark and the Psi-Corps.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yep, she went to the Rim:

                        Originally posted by jms
                        Laurel has been reassigned out on the Rim
                        Joe had planned to bring her back for an episode, but this never occured for whatever reason.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Was the scene where Ivanova said she needs to figure things out shot before the actress didn't come back? It sure seemed like no explanation was needed when she didn't come back next season, but everyone says this isn't how it was planned.
                          "And what kind of head of Security would I be if I let people like me know things that I'm not supposed to know? I mean, I know what I know because I have to know it. And if I don't have to know it, I don't tell me, and I don't let anyone else tell me either. " And I can give you reasonable assurances that the head of Security will not report you for doing so."
                          "Because you won't tell yourself about it?"

                          "I try never to get involved in my own life, too much trouble."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Marsden View Post
                            Was the scene where Ivanova said she needs to figure things out shot before the actress didn't come back? It sure seemed like no explanation was needed when she didn't come back next season, but everyone says this isn't how it was planned.
                            From the Lurker's Guide:

                            Was the shot of Claudia Christian at the end from another episode, inserted when she decided not to return?
                            No, that's a new shot (Claudia at the window). She was shot for that episode for that voice-over...we just changed one line. The basic thrust was that she was going to take some time to *decide* whether to take on B5, or to take on a Warlock class destroyer. So we just went with the decision.
                            Last edited by Jan; 06-26-2009, 07:45 AM.
                            "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Marsden View Post
                              Was the scene where Ivanova said she needs to figure things out shot before the actress didn't come back? It sure seemed like no explanation was needed when she didn't come back next season, but everyone says this isn't how it was planned.
                              The only line changed was the reporter's line; the original line is in the script book which I don't have in front of me, but the gist of the line is like Jan's quote of jms there; that Ivanova was offered a promotion to Captain of Babylon 5 but also offered command of a ship, but she needed time to let her heart decide.

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