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  • WorkerCaste
    replied
    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
    I still haven't seen any evidence of torture there. Just standard humiliation tactics.
    I would respectfully submit that humiliation is torture. Both physical and mental torture share the same goal of "breaking" somone, and for some people the pain of humiliation can be deeper and longer lasting than physical abuse.

    With regard to the interrogator in "Intersections in Real Time", I always thought that he was a guy doing his job, but like all people given a really important task, you've got to be concerned when you don't get the desired results. I think he was telling the truth when he talked about the shortness of time. His task was not just to break Sheridan, but to break him fast, and he wasn't delivering. Management has a short memory and often looks at things with a "What have you done for me today?" perspective. If you've got a great track record, you can usually miss delivering results once or twice, but then you're in trouble. I wouldn't bet on politicians being understanding, either. Add to that the fact that they probably wouldn't just fire him, since they wouldn't want their tactics to come to light, and said tactics demonstrate a real "ends justifies the means" mentality.

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  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    <<Those guys aren't evil (at least i don't think so) but they got the order "break the prisoners". And they tried to do their best. Its a shame.>>

    I still haven't seen any evidence of torture there. Just standard humiliation tactics.

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  • Andrew_Swallow
    replied
    The Vorlons may not use methane to breath but as a food. It gives off a lot of energy when burnt.

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  • NotKosh
    replied
    Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
    That would make my next question moot: if the Vorlon homeworld atmosphere was methane based how were humans able to move in a million years after?
    (An alternate answer would be that the Vorlons left the planet under a terraforming process knowing who would inherit the place)
    Actually an alternate answer would be:
    1) It never was methane based, they just jerking with us. The entire planet actually resembles Circus-Circus. Noone has ever been there but Lyta, and she won't tell.
    2) Humans won't care, being energy beings in the far future.
    3) Humans will care, if they are in corporeal mode, so we change it prior to fully moving there.

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  • WorkerCaste
    replied
    Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
    Light is also a form of vibration in a sense, when you consider lightwaves, and that chemical spectra result from energy levels associated to molecular vibrations...

    [Snip]

    That would make my next question moot: if the Vorlon homeworld atmosphere was methane based how were humans able to move in a million years after?
    (An alternate answer would be that the Vorlons left the planet under a terraforming process knowing who would inherit the place)
    Capt. Montoya, the thought of light as psuedo vibrations did cross my mind. I'm out of date on a lot of this stuff, but I remember discussions of light as "waveicles" (SP?) since it exhibits aspects of both particles and waves. Kind of gets into the whole "unified field" thing. At the very least, though, the vibration aspect probably means converting energy of some form into kinetic energy.

    With regard to the Vorlon homeworld atmosphere, it wouldn't be a big stretch, IMO, to assume that the move was not immediately when the worlds were opened to humans, and that the humans had the ability to terraform at that point. I still like the idea put forward earlier in the thread, though, that it was all smoke and mirrors. I could see them concocting an atmospheric requirement that was designed to drive the younger races batty trying to figure out what kind of organism would use it!
    Last edited by WorkerCaste; 09-23-2004, 04:43 AM.

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  • chaostaenzer
    replied
    No, i think he wasn't punished. He would have told Sheridan everything just to make him talk. He lied. I consider those interrogators as ...lets say "bureaucrats of torture". It's a job they have to do and they don't feel with there victims. If there victims doesn't talk, they will punish the victim or change the interrogator.

    Take a look at other terrorregimes that were overthrown. There were always people who had the excuse that they just did a job or followed orders. Nazi-Germany is just one example, but you'll find those guys even in Iraq. Or think of the U.S. soldiers that worked in Abu Ghureib. Those guys aren't evil (at least i don't think so) but they got the order "break the prisoners". And they tried to do their best. Its a shame.

    But the guy doing Sheridans interrogations wasn't a soldier. He was just the average guy doing his job. And this is imho even more scary.

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  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    I have a question/thought on IIRT.

    Okay, the Interrogator is trying to do his job, we know that much. Do you think it's possible that he was punished for not being successful in his task? I am coming up on that episode, so I will be able to offer more evidence when I watch it again, but last time something struck me in his words that he'd catch hell if he didn't get the job done.

    Was he sent to Room 17? Was he fired? Demoted?

    Thoughts?

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  • bakana
    replied
    When counting Transcendant races, don't forget the race trapped in the Soul Humter globe in River of Souls

    They were evolving into a form so alien, the Soul Hunters thought the entire race was Dying.

    For that matter, every Soul trapped in one of those globes is a being of Pure Energy.
    Which the Globes must be feeding somehow.

    We have to assume that, at some point in their history, the Soul Hunters gained that technology and misunderstood it's purpose.
    They are obviously a quasi-religious order.

    What would the Original purpose of the Tech have been?
    What race Created it?
    I think there is evidence that the Soul Hunters don't really understand how it works.
    For instance, they don't seem to know any way to Release a soul (or a trapped Race) except by destroying the globes.

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  • Capt.Montoya
    replied
    Light is also a form of vibration in a sense, when you consider lightwaves, and that chemical spectra result from energy levels associated to molecular vibrations...
    I guess we could (baselessly) speculate that the Vorlon songs were actually intended to interact with matter in such a fashion.
    I wonder if Vorlons composed songs on that vein. "The symphony of hydrocarbon stretches"?

    Good thoughts indeed Worker Caste.

    Considering Radhil point, for all we know the Vorlons' energy metabolism may well have been radioactivity based from the beginning...
    Or who knows maybe the "transcendent order of life" of the First Ones that Human and Minbari ultimately achieve (and which was thwarted for the River of Souls race) also implies a change in nature that makes a chemical metabolism superfluous.

    That would make my next question moot: if the Vorlon homeworld atmosphere was methane based how were humans able to move in a million years after?
    (An alternate answer would be that the Vorlons left the planet under a terraforming process knowing who would inherit the place)

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  • Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt
    replied
    Good post, Worker..........and very detailed too. If I may, here is something else to ponder. Lorien tells Sheridan and party that "You have never seen a Vorlon enraged. They are more powerful than you can imagine." That's a tall order, I can imagine a LOT of power. But as Worker said, they are able to manipulate and utilize many different kinds of energy, and from what I saw it was not from some device within the encounter suit. After Ulkesh lost the encounter suit he continued to do all kinds of energy related things.

    From the novels I've read, the Vorlons base everything on music, or song. Kosh would sing to his ship, and also the ship sang to Dr. Whatshisname in Hunter, Prey. And music, being sound, would be vibrations, which would be a form of energy (I think). So perhaps it has something to do with music. But then again, that might depend on whether the Vorlons create music with vibrations or with some kind of mental whatever. But still, the music idea has me thinking today. I hope I'm even the littlest bit correct on any of this, but then again if I was right all the time I would have missed the joy of being gigged by Joseph DeMartino.
    Last edited by Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt; 09-22-2004, 02:27 PM.

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  • WorkerCaste
    replied
    Originally posted by Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt
    Ah yes, three times! I stand corrected So, any thoughts on the comment about mental energies displacing the need for physical sustenence?
    Thoughts, yes. Theories, yes. Strong opinions, no. Here are some rambling thoughts, though. From tidbits JMS dropped, Vorlons had some kind of substance to them, but there may have been a strong component of or association with light. (See http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-12027 ) While not pure energy (maybe something more like a plasma?), what was there seemed adapted to manipulating numerous types of energy including light (obvious references throughout), gravity (saving Sheridan, angelic wings aside ), electrical (Kosh 2 attacking after the encounter suit was gone). Throw in ômentalö energy, whatever that might be, and an ability to create vibrations in something molecular or above (KoshÆs voice) and you have a pretty good array. Given the variety, one can reasonably assume an ability to change energy from one form to another, too. If one accepts the ability to transmute energy, then it becomes reasonable to assume that ôlifeö energy could be drawn from something other than the atmosphere. Light? Gravity? Heat? Background radiation? Solar wind? All of the above? Then it becomes a matter of having to periodicaly receive the necessary energy. Who knows what kind of capacity there is in the system. Could be anything from a hummingbird model (constant replenishment) to a snake model (eat once in a great while.)

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  • Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt
    replied
    Ah yes, three times! I stand corrected So, any thoughts on the comment about mental energies displacing the need for physical sustenence?

    And why do I feel the urge to duck? Just because I'm NOT paranoid doesn't mean etc, etc, etc.

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  • vacantlook
    replied
    but in two cases he appeared as an energy being: Sheridan's dream (The Hour of the Wolf? Too lazy to look) and Into the Fire.
    Three times if you count when he came back for Sheridan in "Sleeping In Light."

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  • Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt
    replied
    Except that in the B5 universe, some species are able to make the transformation from corporeal to energy. I think the Vorlons have done this.
    And Lorien too. He sure seemed to have a physical body, but in two cases he appeared as an energy being: Sheridan's dream (The Hour of the Wolf? Too lazy to look) and Into the Fire. My opinion is that it's a mental thing, the minds of the first ones are so powerful that they have displaced the need of physical sustanance (food, water, etc).

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  • Radhil
    replied
    Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
    I can't think of a metabolism that wouldn't have something equivalent to breathing or photosynthesis.
    You mean you can't think of a chemical metabolism. There's all sorts of energy reactions - who's to say that in all those light patterns and such, or perhaps stashed in the encounter suit, was some sort of tiny fusion reaction they could draw sustenance from. Or perhaps some light-based reaction that we couldn't quite comprehend yet. Being a radically different life form, and as close to a "ghost" in the classical sense as we'd ever get, we'd have no idea how it sustained itself. Could've fed off Lyta, using the same life-energy the wierd medical machine did, only far more efficiently. Could've fed off it's ship. Could've fed off ambient light.

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