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  • #91
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by AislingGrey
    [B] ... As Jan said, I don't believe that, legally, he'd be able to be held responsible had Sheridan died. It's all too easy to say "I was paralyzed by fear - I'd never seen a man dying before." How could you disprove that? Last I checked, it wasn't against the law to be a yellow coward! <g> Agree 100%. Sheridan was in a room filling with poisonous gas. The defense that claimed that Lennier was afraid to let the gas attack him (and the ship) would be successful. He could even claim that he was going to get equipment that would allow him to successfully rescue Sheridan, and turned back when he realized that there was nothing on board that would help. No jury, I think, could fail to find a reasonable doubt about his guilt.

    Lennier's failure was a moral one, not a legal one. Whether he mediated aforehand on what he would do if he found Sheridan in mortal peril is also an issue of morality, not law.
    I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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    • #92
      OK, so in a courtroom, amongst a jury of your typical modern day humans, no, nothing would happen to him.

      If the viewers are the jury though (and we so often are)... C'mon. All that's bull.
      Radhil Trebors
      Persona Under Construction

      Comment

      • #93
        But...WHY did John go so light on him? Even if a jury didn't see it, John could see it in his eyes, what he was thinking. I'd be furious.
        Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

        Comment

        • #94
          Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
          But...WHY did John go so light on him? Even if a jury didn't see it, John could see it in his eyes, what he was thinking. I'd be furious.
          Sheridan also saw him come back.
          "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

          Comment

          • #95
            Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
            But...WHY did John go so light on him? Even if a jury didn't see it, John could see it in his eyes, what he was thinking. I'd be furious.
            It was more complicated than that. John is probably keenly aware of Lennier's feelings for Delenn. That he probably understands more than anything else. Despite everything, it was also something John got out of himself, in the end.

            Ultimately though... he went light probably for Delenn's sake.
            Radhil Trebors
            Persona Under Construction

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            • #96
              The thing is that I seriously doubt Lennier had ever thought of killing Sheridan. It would be very "anti-Minbari" or something like that.

              He could have been accused of negligence, but not of premeditated murder.
              The way I see it Sheridan decided to keep the situation under wraps to avoid a scandal, that would hurt the reputation of Delenn and Sheridan, not only of Lennier. A scandal of that magnitude while the ISA is just getting established in Minbar, after the Centauri conflict, and the Telepath scandal, could have been very inconvenient.
              I don't think we can say Sheridan was lenient... he actually never got a chance to punish Lennier. Lennier went back to help after leaving Sheridan to die (IIRC Sheridan notices that) but immediately after he ran away.

              Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
              Here is an obscure question:

              I have been watching the civil war arc these past few weeks. In the episode where Garibaldi draws the face in the mirror, does the mouth curve down on one end because of that face he sometimes makes? I'd seen this episode a half-dozen times before, but this is the first time it has occured to me.

              Another question:

              Number One says she has thirty witnesses who saw Garibaldi dupe Sheridan...if about fifteen guys at the most jumped him, then where were the thirty witnesses? That wasn't a huge pub they were in. I could speculate on the thirty witnesses, but does anyone else have any other thoughts?
              The :-| face that Garibaldi put was a way to show that something was wrong within, IMO. The trapped real Garibaldi showing through the Psi-Corps modified personality.

              Number One's mention of thirty witnesses could have been a spur of the moment number, I think everyone tends to do that. She could have said 20, maybe she just had 10, maybe she had 28 or 32, but no matter what she said 30 to make a point: "we have no doubt that Garibaldi betrayed the cause, and we have witnesses."
              Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
              James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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              • #97
                As far as Lennier's crime, there ARE laws in the US which create a "Responsibility to Render Aid" in certain situations where Lives are clearly at stake.

                I don't know how a failure to render aid is prosecuted, but the laws do exist.
                Probably different in every state, too.

                I'd guess the most likely charge would be Manslaughter by Negligence.
                Or perhaps one I've heard on a few Lawyer shows: Depraved Indifference to Life.

                Manslaughter is the usual charge where the person who comitted the crime didn't Directly cause the death, but Could or Should have acted to Prevent it.

                Murder implies direct action, premeditated or not.

                Firing a Gun in a fit of Anger would be a candidate for 2nd degree Murder.

                Driving Drunk, OTOH, gets Manslaughter because the Death, while arguably Forseeable, is usually not Deliberate.

                Comment

                • #98
                  Originally posted by bakana
                  As far as Lennier's crime, there ARE laws in the US which create a "Responsibility to Render Aid" in certain situations where Lives are clearly at stake.
                  Mmhh, yeah... but what about the Interstellar Alliance laws on the issue?

                  Or more properly the Minbari laws, it was their vessel and their vassal.
                  The Minbari civil war case of the Warriors driving Religious Caste people into the freezing wilderness (the Minbari Trail of Tears?) would indicate to me that they might not have such a law... because they never thought they would need it. Lennier's negligent act may not have been against Minbari Law, but it was against the supposed Minbari nature.

                  In any event... Lennier ends up guilt ridden and separated forever from the object of his unrequitted love, likely to die in an attempt to redeem himself in the eyes of Delenn. Not a legal punishment, but there's some justice in that.
                  Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                  James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

                  Comment

                  • #99
                    This week on Law and Order: SMU (Special Minbari Unit) the unit is troubled by jurisdictional difficulties. The IA doesnÆt want the case because it doesnÆt involve governments and is an internal matter. Minbari law is vague, because Minbari donÆt harm Minbari, and harming other races must be war. LennierÆs life hangs in the balance as the unit tries to discover if it really was a crime and who has jurisdiction! The fugitive is in flight and time is running out!
                    "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

                    Comment

                    • #100
                      This week on Law and Order: SMU (Special Minbari Unit) the unit is troubled by jurisdictional difficulties. The IA doesnÆt want the case because it doesnÆt involve governments and is an internal matter. Minbari law is vague, because Minbari donÆt harm Minbari, and harming other races must be war. LennierÆs life hangs in the balance as the unit tries to discover if it really was a crime and who has jurisdiction! The fugitive is in flight and time is running out!
                      `
                      Very nice idea.
                      Anyone here who dares writing a script on that issue?

                      Comment

                      • #101
                        Originally posted by chaostaenzer
                        Very nice idea.
                        Anyone here who dares writing a script on that issue?
                        "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

                        Comment

                        • #102
                          Originally posted by chaostaenzer
                          `
                          Very nice idea.
                          Anyone here who dares writing a script on that issue?
                          Cool idea, but writing it... that unfortunately would be fan fiction, and the unwritten consensus here has been to avoid that.
                          Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                          James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

                          Comment

                          • #103
                            Be nice to each other

                            Vorlons, Kosh with his mate
                            http://www.verdieck.com/b5/7.jpg
                            I wonder if that's the origin of the pairing of Kosh and Ulkesh in ITB and WWE. Ulkesh did take Kosh's death rather badly. What if they were, (ahem!)
                            Nudge. nudge wink, wink, say no more!
                            I have the wings for Bingo.

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                            • #104
                              I was watching In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum the other day and and I noticed something I'd never noticed before. After Vir verbally bitchslaps Morden with his pike comment, Morden holds up the data crystal and his hand is in a near perfect flip off sign. Do you think it was like one of those things where you scratch your nose with your middle finger as a (not so) subtle way to give someone the bird?
                              Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                              Comment

                              • #105
                                Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                                I was watching In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum the other day and and I noticed something I'd never noticed before. After Vir verbally bitchslaps Morden with his pike comment, Morden holds up the data crystal and his hand is in a near perfect flip off sign. Do you think it was like one of those things where you scratch your nose with your middle finger as a (not so) subtle way to give someone the bird?
                                Interesting thought, but I always thought that Vir's comment about some favors coming with too high a price hit a little close to home, and the crystal connects him to the price he's paying.
                                "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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