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  • #61
    Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
    Light is also a form of vibration in a sense, when you consider lightwaves, and that chemical spectra result from energy levels associated to molecular vibrations...

    [Snip]

    That would make my next question moot: if the Vorlon homeworld atmosphere was methane based how were humans able to move in a million years after?
    (An alternate answer would be that the Vorlons left the planet under a terraforming process knowing who would inherit the place)
    Capt. Montoya, the thought of light as psuedo vibrations did cross my mind. I'm out of date on a lot of this stuff, but I remember discussions of light as "waveicles" (SP?) since it exhibits aspects of both particles and waves. Kind of gets into the whole "unified field" thing. At the very least, though, the vibration aspect probably means converting energy of some form into kinetic energy.

    With regard to the Vorlon homeworld atmosphere, it wouldn't be a big stretch, IMO, to assume that the move was not immediately when the worlds were opened to humans, and that the humans had the ability to terraform at that point. I still like the idea put forward earlier in the thread, though, that it was all smoke and mirrors. I could see them concocting an atmospheric requirement that was designed to drive the younger races batty trying to figure out what kind of organism would use it!
    Last edited by WorkerCaste; 09-23-2004, 05:43 AM.
    "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
      That would make my next question moot: if the Vorlon homeworld atmosphere was methane based how were humans able to move in a million years after?
      (An alternate answer would be that the Vorlons left the planet under a terraforming process knowing who would inherit the place)
      Actually an alternate answer would be:
      1) It never was methane based, they just jerking with us. The entire planet actually resembles Circus-Circus. Noone has ever been there but Lyta, and she won't tell.
      2) Humans won't care, being energy beings in the far future.
      3) Humans will care, if they are in corporeal mode, so we change it prior to fully moving there.
      "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

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      • #63
        The Vorlons may not use methane to breath but as a food. It gives off a lot of energy when burnt.
        Andrew Swallow

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        • #64
          <<Those guys aren't evil (at least i don't think so) but they got the order "break the prisoners". And they tried to do their best. Its a shame.>>

          I still haven't seen any evidence of torture there. Just standard humiliation tactics.
          Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
            I still haven't seen any evidence of torture there. Just standard humiliation tactics.
            I would respectfully submit that humiliation is torture. Both physical and mental torture share the same goal of "breaking" somone, and for some people the pain of humiliation can be deeper and longer lasting than physical abuse.

            With regard to the interrogator in "Intersections in Real Time", I always thought that he was a guy doing his job, but like all people given a really important task, you've got to be concerned when you don't get the desired results. I think he was telling the truth when he talked about the shortness of time. His task was not just to break Sheridan, but to break him fast, and he wasn't delivering. Management has a short memory and often looks at things with a "What have you done for me today?" perspective. If you've got a great track record, you can usually miss delivering results once or twice, but then you're in trouble. I wouldn't bet on politicians being understanding, either. Add to that the fact that they probably wouldn't just fire him, since they wouldn't want their tactics to come to light, and said tactics demonstrate a real "ends justifies the means" mentality.
            "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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            • #66
              Originally posted by WorkerCaste
              I would respectfully submit that humiliation is torture. Both physical and mental torture share the same goal of "breaking" somone, and for some people the pain of humiliation can be deeper and longer lasting than physical abuse.

              With regard to the interrogator in "Intersections in Real Time", I always thought that he was a guy doing his job, but like all people given a really important task, you've got to be concerned when you don't get the desired results. I think he was telling the truth when he talked about the shortness of time. His task was not just to break Sheridan, but to break him fast, and he wasn't delivering. Management has a short memory and often looks at things with a "What have you done for me today?" perspective. If you've got a great track record, you can usually miss delivering results once or twice, but then you're in trouble. I wouldn't bet on politicians being understanding, either. Add to that the fact that they probably wouldn't just fire him, since they wouldn't want their tactics to come to light, and said tactics demonstrate a real "ends justifies the means" mentality.
              That said, what do you think happened? Pay cut?
              Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

              Comment


              • #67
                Goes the Inquisitor...

                I'd think they just put him to work in another prisoner... similarly to how they switched interrogators for Sheridan.

                I'd speculate that they expected Sheridan to be a tough nut to crack, so they put one of their best (not necessarily their best) to work him up. When the first interrogator failed they put the second one, and changed tactics.

                Also I remember that part of the first interrogation tactic was the pressure: "confess now or else..." When they went through the simulated electrocution of Sheridan giving him the very same interrogator again would have been uneffective... but with a new one, Sheridan wouldn't know for sure if his threats were now for real.

                And after the fall of the Clarke regime many of those interrogators went underground, maybe in Argentina...
                Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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                • #68
                  The Vorlons may not use methane to breath but as a food. It gives off a lot of energy when burnt.
                  And tonight I surf by space.com and read an article there titled Life is a Gas: Methane Might Support Underground ET that talks about an "idea that [methane] could theoretically support unseen colonies of microbes on both [Earth and Mars]." It's a considerably interesting article to read.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Andrew_Swallow
                    The Vorlons may not use methane to breath but as a food. It gives off a lot of energy when burnt.
                    Yes... when burned with oxygen... and you can't mix them in an atmosphere without risk of explosion.
                    Burning is oxidation (doesn't need to be oxygen, fluorine is another quite oxidizing gas, other oxidizing agents exist), methane is more likely to be part of a reducing metabolism (the opposite of oxidation).
                    A possibility would be a hydrogen based metabolism:
                    CH4 + H2O -- > CO2 + H2
                    (you can balance the equation to remember high school chemistry)

                    I should read that Space.com article before speculating more...
                    Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                    James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                      That said, what do you think happened? Pay cut?
                      I think it would depend. The corporate (or government) approach is more typically a stalled career path and less interesting work. Still, if it was his first real failure, he would probably been given another chance. Sheridan's escape may have been a help, too, since the PTB can't point and say "Well, Bob broke him. Why didn't you?" I fthey had broken SHeridan, they would have been able to point out exactly what the first guy did wrong. You know, that old "Well, I loosened the lid first" never works.

                      The ultimate question of what happened to him depends on how much came to light after Clark was gone. I wonder if SHeridan dropped a word or two in the right places.
                      "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I rewatched the Vorlon battle scene in Falling Towards Apothoesis again. It's interesting to note the immense power of a Vorlon, even a piece of a Vorlon. After watching that scene, I'm inclined to say that they don't NEED any kind of physical sustenance as we corporeal entities do, since they've transcended physical form. Just watch that scene.........they're walking power plants! (or floating, or maybe they have roller skates on under the jukebox, who knows?) I'm being literal too, walking power plants! Biff! Sock! Pow! (cue Batman theme)
                        "The cat is not evil for killing the rat, nor is the rat evil for stealing the grain. Each acts according to its nature." Master Po - Kung Fu:TOS

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
                          Yes... when burned with oxygen... and you can't mix them in an atmosphere without risk of explosion.
                          Burning is oxidation (doesn't need to be oxygen, fluorine is another quite oxidizing gas, other oxidizing agents exist), methane is more likely to be part of a reducing metabolism (the opposite of oxidation).
                          A possibility would be a hydrogen based metabolism:
                          CH4 + H2O -- > CO2 + H2
                          (you can balance the equation to remember high school chemistry)

                          I should read that Space.com article before speculating more...
                          Plants could use that equation, to move animals need a reaction that gives off energy.

                          A possibility is to use an oxidising agent like hydrogen peroxide instead of water.

                          CH4 + 4 H202 --> C02 + 6 H2O

                          As an alternative to the bleach that dyes hair Kosh could eat a solid fertiliser. Such as potassium nitrate or that favourite in home made explosives ammonium nitrate.
                          Andrew Swallow

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                          • #73
                            Wow, this is getting heavy, and a little over my head!

                            Walking power plants. I like it. Easy to understand!
                            "The cat is not evil for killing the rat, nor is the rat evil for stealing the grain. Each acts according to its nature." Master Po - Kung Fu:TOS

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                            • #74
                              <<You know, that old "Well, I loosened the lid first" never works.>>

                              I knoooooooow. I've tried using it every time I've failed to break someone.

                              <<The ultimate question of what happened to him depends on how much came to light after Clark was gone. I wonder if SHeridan dropped a word or two in the right places.>>

                              Considering his lenient, forgiving nature, such as his reaction when Lennier tried to murder him, who knows?
                              Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt
                                ... I'm inclined to say that they don't NEED any kind of physical sustenance as we corporeal entities do, since they've transcended physical form. Just watch that scene.........they're walking power plants! (or floating, or maybe they have roller skates on under the jukebox, who knows?) I'm being literal too, walking power plants! Biff! Sock! Pow! (cue Batman theme)
                                On the non-corporeal concept of Vorlons:
                                > Was Kosh actually poisoned or did he just fake it for the
                                > natives?

                                No, he wasn't faking it. Understand that their appearance as a
                                being of light is only how they want to appear; they are life forms
                                much the same as many others
                                , and can be poisoned if one knows the
                                right combination of substances.
                                http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-1691

                                A non corporeal being couldn't be poisoned by a skin tab containing chemical substances, you need a chemical metabolism for poisons to affect you...

                                I think hydrogen peroxide is too unstable to be part of a metabolism, unless it was produced by the organism itself, which would require an oxidizing agent. Peroxides in general are too reactive and will decompose very easily (sometimes explosively).
                                The Space.com article mentions microorganism that use hydrogen and produce methane, this is a reducing metabolism, the opposite of an oxidizing one. Which indeed would be more adequate for vegetable life-forms. The reason air breating organisms dominated Earth is that oxidation reactions in general produce more energy than reduction reactions. (Also that primordial cyanobacteria left almost no choice by filling the atmosphere with oxygen from photosynthesis a few thousand million years ago, leading to extinction of many anaerobic organisms, with few surviving in specific ecologic niches).
                                I'd think that nitrates could be an oxidizer counterpart in a reducing metabolism, good idea Andrew.

                                Considering [ Sheridan's ] lenient, forgiving nature, such as his reaction when Lennier tried to murder him, who knows
                                Lennier sinned by omision, not by action. He left Sheridan to die.
                                The interrogator actively tortured him, that would make him a criminal in Sheridan's eyes IMO.
                                Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                                James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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