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Legend of the Rangers Thread...2009 edition

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  • #46
    I - too - would have liked the original version better. It makes sense to augment the gunner. I still like the realized version, too, but I can see that the acting didn't fulfill the promise of a useable system.

    I would have mixed into a part of "the Matrix", direct neural feedback. So you are in an simulated environment, not hindered by the slow reflexes of your body, but able to use the trained reflexes in the simulation. 8-)

    PeAcE
    greetings from austria, best known for its history and fine wine... feels like a wine cellar on a graveyard 8-)

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    • #47
      I have this film on DVD. I bought it, paid hard cash for it brand new and on day of release.

      But come on people, it is just not very good.

      G'Kar is like a gay drunk. It is only Andreas' superb presence that keeps him real and not a caricature of his former self. Sorry, no.

      When the first one left to pass beyond the rim, that was it, all of the older races were gone. But now a new 'old' race appears that is even more advanced and even older than them? Sorry, no.

      The stupid addition to the Ranger's coda about never backing away from a fight. Since when? Sorry, no.

      The writing was at times, both brilliant and then terrible.

      I can forgive the CG faults as beyond JMS' control and I suppose, grudgingly for the same reason, the weapons console.

      As said, just not very good.
      http://www.lddb.com/collection.php?a...er=dgtwoodward
      Yes, I still collect Laserdiscs!!
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      • #48
        It occurs to me that JMS sets things up to be revealed as they go, maybe some things would have been better if the show was actually made.

        But the Rangers never retreat, even if it makes total sense and We've seen them do it before, yeah, can't save that one.
        "And what kind of head of Security would I be if I let people like me know things that I'm not supposed to know? I mean, I know what I know because I have to know it. And if I don't have to know it, I don't tell me, and I don't let anyone else tell me either. " And I can give you reasonable assurances that the head of Security will not report you for doing so."
        "Because you won't tell yourself about it?"

        "I try never to get involved in my own life, too much trouble."

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Marsden View Post
          But the Rangers never retreat, even if it makes total sense and We've seen them do it before, yeah, can't save that one.
          Sometimes, retreat is the smart thing to do, because it can conserve lives (trained Rangers) and resources to fight another day. Rangers aren't supposed to be stupid. However, maybe some of the zealots (suicidal, pessimistic Religious Caste, and militaristic Warrior Caste) who we saw in Rumors, Bargains and Lies
          http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countr...guide/079.html

          ...got into the Ranger hierarchy in 2263 and 2264.
          Mac Breck (KoshN)
          ------------------
          Warner Brothers is Lucy.
          JMS and we fans are collectively Charlie Brown.
          Babylon 5 is the football.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by LightStorm View Post
            I have this film on DVD. I bought it, paid hard cash for it brand new and on day of release.

            But come on people, it is just not very good.
            Whenever this subject has come up over the years I've said that there are elements I thought needed work. It wasn't a perfect project by any means, however...

            G'Kar is like a gay drunk. It is only Andreas' superb presence that keeps him real and not a caricature of his former self. Sorry, no.
            I didn't see it that way. I saw it as a continuation of the path that G'Kar was on. He started very closed and angry, but by the end of the run he had developed an easiness and, yes, a sense of humor. As he travelled I expect that the process continued and that JMS was relying on Andreas to be able to carry that. G'Kar and his people had been on the edge of the abyss, and upon stepping back became much lighter of heart. Some people even become giddy in those situations.

            When the first one left to pass beyond the rim, that was it, all of the older races were gone. But now a new 'old' race appears that is even more advanced and even older than them? Sorry, no.
            The only source for this is the aliens' own PR. Nothing says that it's true. In fact, the show seems to argue against it being true.

            The stupid addition to the Ranger's coda about never backing away from a fight. Since when? Sorry, no.
            Yeah, it would be a really stupid addition. Then again, that's what the story was pointing out, and I've been involved in enough large organizations (even a number not so large) where the stupid becomes institutional law because someone had a good idea that was subsequently misunderstood and/or misimplemented.

            The writing was at times, both brilliant and then terrible.
            I wouldn't say "terrible" although it was a little rough at times.

            I can forgive the CG faults as beyond JMS' control and I suppose, grudgingly for the same reason, the weapons console.
            And those are some of the biggest flaws to me, but I am also willing to forgive, especially since I feel that any show which tries to be great is destined to fall on its face once in a while. You can't have one end of the spectrum without risking the other.
            "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Marsden View Post
              It occurs to me that JMS sets things up to be revealed as they go, maybe some things would have been better if the show was actually made.

              But the Rangers never retreat, even if it makes total sense and We've seen them do it before, yeah, can't save that one.
              Originally posted by KoshN View Post
              Sometimes, retreat is the smart thing to do, because it can conserve lives (trained Rangers) and resources to fight another day. Rangers aren't supposed to be stupid. However, maybe some of the zealots (suicidal, pessimistic Religious Caste, and militaristic Warrior Caste) who we saw in Rumors, Bargains and Lies
              http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countr...guide/079.html

              ...got into the Ranger hierarchy in 2263 and 2264.
              I don't have the script book in front of me, but I believe jms mentioned the young crew as "never retreating" as something they were supposed to get over during the show, and yes he definitely mentions the Ranger hierarchy was split; fallout from the Minbari civil war.

              Originally posted by WorkerCaste View Post
              The only source for this is the aliens' own PR. Nothing says that it's true. In fact, the show seems to argue against it being true.
              jms mentions this one in the script book too -- The Hand were basically trying to make themselves look tough by claiming they were older than the Shadows, but it wasn't true. Some in the Ranger hierarchy were allied with The Hand. The young crew would learn eventually that the enemy was from within.
              Last edited by JoeD80; 03-17-2009, 01:29 PM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by LightStorm View Post
                I have this film on DVD. I bought it, paid hard cash for it brand new and on day of release.

                But come on people, it is just not very good.

                G'Kar is like a gay drunk. It is only Andreas' superb presence that keeps him real and not a caricature of his former self. Sorry, no.

                I found him a comic touch I didn't mind.

                When the first one left to pass beyond the rim, that was it, all of the older races were gone. But now a new 'old' race appears that is even more advanced and even older than them? Sorry, no.
                Thank you, I absolutely hated that, and I was disgusted with that entire concept in the last few years of SG-1 and SG-A. It screams of "I have no imagination and no conception of Science Fiction, so I will just introduce a bigger monster". SG-1 went downhill when they finally finished off the Goauld and came right back with Anubis. Then he wouldn't die and they came back with him again. Then they gave us the Aurii. Like they had no imagination whatsoever and all they could introduce as plot devices were more and more powerful bad guys. Reintroducing the replicators because they ran out of imagination.

                Then we have a fresh start in a new galaxy and what do they do? Introduce vampires as the bad guys. And lets throw in Replicators too.
                OTOH, I did respect the decision to go with the genetic warfare solution later. None of that pathetic Picardian morality when he had the ability to eliminate the Borg and chose not too.

                Originally posted by LightStorm View Post
                The stupid addition to the Ranger's coda about never backing away from a fight. Since when? Sorry, no.
                Agreed, that kind of thinking would have given the Shadows the universe 2 Shadow wars ago

                Originally posted by LightStorm View Post
                The writing was at times, both brilliant and then terrible.

                I can forgive the CG faults as beyond JMS' control and I suppose, grudgingly for the same reason, the weapons console.

                As said, just not very good.
                Last edited by NotKosh; 03-23-2009, 02:54 PM.
                "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by NotKosh View Post
                  Thank you, I absolutely hated that, and I was disgusted with that entire concept in the last few years of SG-1 and SG-A. It screams of "I have no imagination and no conception of Science Fiction, so I will just introduce a bigger monster".
                  Go back to one post before yours. This was *NOT* what was going on. The alien race was *bluffing* -- making shit up!! A misdirection from the real threat within the Ranger structure.

                  Originally posted by NotKosh View Post
                  Agreed, that kind of thinking would have given the Shadows the universe 2 Shadow wars ago
                  They were going to *learn* that it was stupid to think they should never retreat. They were a young crew that didn't know any better. The Ranger hierarchy was split with some of those involved with the Hand. This "never retreat" sentiment was to come up as a plot point in the show.
                  Last edited by JoeD80; 03-23-2009, 03:58 PM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by LightStorm View Post
                    The writing was at times, both brilliant and then terrible.

                    Originally posted by WorkerCaste View Post
                    I wouldn't say "terrible" although it was a little rough at times.
                    How about simplistic and awkward, leading the viewer by the nose and connecting the dots for them? It was also over the top, at times.
                    Mac Breck (KoshN)
                    ------------------
                    Warner Brothers is Lucy.
                    JMS and we fans are collectively Charlie Brown.
                    Babylon 5 is the football.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by LightStorm View Post
                      The writing was at times, both brilliant and then terrible.
                      Brilliant? Where?
                      Mac Breck (KoshN)
                      ------------------
                      Warner Brothers is Lucy.
                      JMS and we fans are collectively Charlie Brown.
                      Babylon 5 is the football.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by KoshN View Post
                        How about simplistic and awkward, leading the viewer by the nose and connecting the dots for them?
                        And yet there are still people screeching that the Hand were just a copy of the Shadows, accepting without question the propaganda of one of the Hand's own minions. After all of B5 you'd have thought that fans would know, especially since G'Kar points it out again, that nothing on Babylon 5 is as it first appears.

                        Apparently the pilot didn't lead them by the hand enough.

                        Jan
                        "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Jan View Post
                          And yet there are still people screeching that the Hand were just a copy of the Shadows, accepting without question the propaganda of one of the Hand's own minions. After all of B5 you'd have thought that fans would know, especially since G'Kar points it out again, that nothing on Babylon 5 is as it first appears.

                          Apparently the pilot didn't lead them by the hand enough.

                          Jan
                          What a pun!
                          Babylon 5 Animations

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Marsden View Post
                            It occurs to me that JMS sets things up to be revealed as they go, maybe some things would have been better if the show was actually made.

                            But the Rangers never retreat, even if it makes total sense and We've seen them do it before, yeah, can't save that one.
                            I'd just like to waffle on my own post. If it took a season or so to discover that the hand and bad elements in the rangers leadership were actually telling rangers they wanted to get rid of, "you can't retreat, it's dishonorable" then that would be expainable and actually a good revelation on par with "Clark had Santiago assasinated" if done well. I think he should have stuck with more of a self contained story for the pilot in that case but maybe he just wanted to get into it. With that information I've found a lot more respect for the show. Not enought to watch it again, but more than before. The hand could have been Windswords or some of those wild and crazy Mimbari warriors that just like getting rid of humans. It seemed as though they didn't show them at all, I can't remember. This could be to keep them hidden or for not making a new alien/cheap budget concerns. If they turned out to be Mimbari or maybe just another underling of the Shadows race like Drahk were, maybe.
                            Last edited by Marsden; 03-25-2009, 07:40 AM.
                            "And what kind of head of Security would I be if I let people like me know things that I'm not supposed to know? I mean, I know what I know because I have to know it. And if I don't have to know it, I don't tell me, and I don't let anyone else tell me either. " And I can give you reasonable assurances that the head of Security will not report you for doing so."
                            "Because you won't tell yourself about it?"

                            "I try never to get involved in my own life, too much trouble."

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Jan View Post
                              And yet there are still people screeching that the Hand were just a copy of the Shadows, accepting without question the propaganda of one of the Hand's own minions. After all of B5 you'd have thought that fans would know, especially since G'Kar points it out again, that nothing on Babylon 5 is as it first appears.

                              Apparently the pilot didn't lead them by the hand enough.

                              Jan

                              I was referring to David being "Mr. Explain-It-All-to-the-Audience." Anyway, I watched it again, yesterday, start to finish, and with some editing (Delete all scenes showing Sarah in the weapons system. Just show the ship firing from outside the ship.), and keeping in mind what JMS said in the B5 Movie Scriptbook, it wouldn't be bad as a sort of action-adventure romp. The thing that still makes me cringe are mainly Sarah's scenes, especially when she's firing the weapons and is acting like heaving lead balls at the enemy. That amount of physical exertion in firing the weapons is absolutely ridiculous, and embarrassingly bad. The other bad parts are Sarah's scenes where she's utterly cornball/cliche. I would have liked to see Sarah less overacted, more like Ivanova, less hotheaded.
                              Mac Breck (KoshN)
                              ------------------
                              Warner Brothers is Lucy.
                              JMS and we fans are collectively Charlie Brown.
                              Babylon 5 is the football.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I kind of liked Sarah. Mainly I'd have enjoyed seeing the relationships among the crew explored.

                                You know what I really love about B5 in particular (and JMS's casting/writing in general)? I *never* have any trouble knowing who's who. In far too many shows they cast people with such bland, homogenized features and personalities I can't be bothered to keep track of who's who. This is never a problem with any of the B5 universe characters.

                                Jan
                                "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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