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Legend of the Rangers Thread...2009 edition

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  • Legend of the Rangers Thread...2009 edition

    Originally posted by Lunan View Post
    i LIKE that particular movie, i don't understand why everyone gives hell about it
    Since January 2002, many thousands of words of explanation have been written here, on B5TV.com, on rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated, on IMDb and other websites, which explain why many people can't stand this particular B5 movie. I know; I've written my fair share of them (as Jan will attest.), and am refraining from restating them here.

    I really should put together a FAQ on this subject.
    Mac Breck (KoshN)
    ------------------
    Warner Brothers is Lucy.
    JMS and we fans are collectively Charlie Brown.
    Babylon 5 is the football.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Lunan View Post
    i LIKE that particular movie, i don't understand why everyone gives hell about it
    As do I, Lunan.

    As for the quote, Mac, I'm doing the Joe Cuts for it right now. And thanks for your forebearance.

    Jan
    "Fascism always comes in quietly, holding a flag in one hand and a holy book in the other, inching its way in. The bugles and drums only sound after they've already taken over and believe it's too late to do anything about it." JMS Twitter Dec. 24, 2017

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Jan View Post
      As do I, Lunan.

      As for the quote, Mac, I'm doing the Joe Cuts for it right now. And thanks for your forebearance.

      Jan
      i get the whole this isn't the "real" b5 thing, but it wasn't supposed to be, it was to tell the story of the rangers, the only tie it had with b5 was that it was the same universe. we would see different techs, etc. no shadows, no station, no sinclair or sheridan etc.
      i just don't get all the hate directed at it at all.

      i mean you don't get the same kind of hate directed at star gate atlantis, you don't get the same hate toward deep space nine (on you do get a little of it towards voyager, and alot of it at enterprise, btw i understand the hate aimed at enterprise)

      for what the movie was. it was a damned good movie and a good story, i do wish it had made it as a show or at least a mini series. and if push comes to it, i will agree that the story could have been done as a standalone with no connection to b5, i think either way it would have made a good show

      Comment


      • #4
        It had issues, but I thought it was all right and agree that there is a bit of a frenzy surrounding some of the complaints. Genuinely, this does shed some (hitherto unknown) light on things that I found interesting.

        http://themadgoner.com/B5/B5Scrolls/...m#Screen1_15_1

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Lunan View Post
          i LIKE that particular movie, i don't understand why everyone gives hell about it

          Just my opinion, but I think a lot of the issues people had with it is the fact that it wasnÆt really a movieà it was a pilot episode that never materialized.

          I for one, was disappointed when the title didnÆt match my expectationsà now donÆt get me wrong, I did like the show, but there was an air of not being what I expectedà like the show not being about Valen, Ranger training, and or the mysteries of the religious overtonesà within the B5 universeà Prequel - back-story, not a new pilot for a spin off, but that is just me. Others may have their own feelings about this subject; mine are the titleà which lead to my expectations, which lead to my disappointmentà to a likable show.
          "The world is a dangerous place---not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it" --Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #6
            I didn't have any of the above mentioned problems with it. I found the writing and acting largely horrible though.

            Having said that, The Gathering was pretty naff too, so I have no problem believing LOTR could have become a great show.

            Comment


            • #7
              Sorry Jan. While I can't resist, I'll try not to rehash things too much.


              Originally posted by Lunan View Post
              i get the whole this isn't the "real" b5 thing, but it wasn't supposed to be,
              I'm not sure what you mean by that.


              Originally posted by Lunan View Post
              ... it was to tell the story of the rangers, the only tie it had with b5 was that it was the same universe.
              Would have been nice if it had looked more like it was from that universe.



              Originally posted by Lunan View Post
              we would see different techs, etc.
              Maybe.


              Originally posted by Lunan View Post
              no shadows,
              In 2265, you're probably right.


              Originally posted by Lunan View Post
              no station,
              Not necessarily true. In Crusade, we saw the station, as much as we could given that Warner Brothers had destroyed a lot of the sets.


              Originally posted by Lunan View Post
              no sinclair
              Probably true, unless there was a time travel episode (unlikely) or flashbacks shown.


              Originally posted by Lunan View Post
              or sheridan etc.
              Sheridan and Delenn could have been seen on the show. They are, at different times, each, the leader of the Rangers.


              Originally posted by Lunan View Post
              i just don't get all the hate directed at it at all.
              i mean you don't get the same kind of hate directed at star gate atlantis,
              I, for one, didn't expect much from Stargate Atlantis. Both SG-1 and SG-A were fun shows, more superficial shows, that didn't demand as much from the viewer.


              Originally posted by Lunan View Post
              you don't get the same hate toward deep space nine (on you do get a little of it towards voyager, and alot of it at enterprise, btw i understand the hate aimed at enterprise)
              I couldn't stand Deep Space Nine or Voyager. <spit> Enterprise? Well, I never really took it seriously. None of these are in the same league as B5, IMO, i.e. B5 is far above them.


              Originally posted by Lunan View Post
              for what the movie was. it was a damned good movie and a good story, i do wish it had made it as a show or at least a mini series.
              If so, they might have retracted that asinine Ranger policy, and become a tolerable show.


              Originally posted by Lunan View Post
              and if push comes to it, i will agree that the story could have been done as a standalone with no connection to b5,
              And that is pretty much what they did. Connections were tenuous. It bore little resemblance with the B5 universe of 2262~2263. It was as if the show had been given to another studio, producer and writer, and they tried to match things up to B5 as best they could, without really trying too hard.


              Originally posted by Lunan View Post
              i think either way it would have made a good show
              Some of the casting was awful, but maybe those actors wouldn't have made it from the pilot to the series. Ditto for the weapons firing contraption. I hope the writing would have gotten better. I liked the writing in "The Gathering" better than this.
              Mac Breck (KoshN)
              ------------------
              Warner Brothers is Lucy.
              JMS and we fans are collectively Charlie Brown.
              Babylon 5 is the football.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by KoshN View Post
                Sorry Jan. While I can't resist, I'll try not to rehash things too much.
                No problem, Mac. I've just moved the Rangers posts to a new thread.

                (kinda wish this system would carry previous quotes over...)

                Would have been nice if it had looked more like it was from that universe.
                I thought there were plenty of visual cues that we were in the B5 universe: The god room, the Ranger Council chamber, hyperspace and jump points. I wasn't overly thrilled at the look of Minbar even if it was at night that we were seeing it.

                Not necessarily true. In Crusade, we saw the station, as much as we could given that Warner Brothers had destroyed a lot of the sets.
                We saw the outside of the Station (sans Epsilon 3) in Rangers and even that felt a little forced to me. I can't see that having any scenes set on the station would have helped the story at all.

                Sheridan and Delenn could have been seen on the show. They are, at different times, each, the leader of the Rangers.
                Sheridan was mentioned by G'Kar. Would showing him have helped set the pilot as its own show? I don't think it would have done anything but raise the cost of the pilot unnecessarily.


                If so, they might have retracted that asinine Ranger policy, and become a tolerable show.
                It'll be interesting to see what JMS has to say about the movie in the upcoming book.

                And that is pretty much what they did. Connections were tenuous. It bore little resemblance with the B5 universe of 2262~2263. It was as if the show had been given to another studio, producer and writer, and they tried to match things up to B5 as best they could, without really trying too hard.
                With the exception of the look of Minbar, I didn't have any trouble with the look of the show. I expected and wanted it to be different from B5, though. Heck, with it being commissioned by the Sci-Fi Channel, I thought it was lucky that the whole pilot wasn't even more run-and-jump adventure than it was.

                Originally posted by rallytbk
                I for one, was disappointed when the title didnÆt match my expectationsà now donÆt get me wrong, I did like the show, but there was an air of not being what I expectedà like the show not being about Valen, Ranger training, and or the mysteries of the religious overtonesà within the B5 universeà Prequel - back-story, not a new pilot for a spin off, but that is just me. Others may have their own feelings about this subject; mine are the titleà which lead to my expectations, which lead to my disappointmentà to a likable show.
                I think the 'episode' title of "To Live and Die in Starlight" worked well for the pilot episode and we did see where David Martel was somewhat enamoured of the myths and legends of the past. I wonder if we might have seen something of how the Rangers fostered their legendary reputation through following David as he tried to fit in or fit the Rangers to himself and his crew.

                Jan
                "Fascism always comes in quietly, holding a flag in one hand and a holy book in the other, inching its way in. The bugles and drums only sound after they've already taken over and believe it's too late to do anything about it." JMS Twitter Dec. 24, 2017

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KoshN View Post
                  Not necessarily true. In Crusade, we saw the station, as much as we could given that Warner Brothers had destroyed a lot of the sets.
                  jms said most of the B5 sets were gone because they were getting trashed; they kept some for Crusade since Babylon 5 would show up in the story from time to time.

                  Originally posted by jms
                  Most of the B5 sets were scrapped after we finished production, in large measure because they'd just gotten trashed over 5 years of shooting, and because WB didn't want to pay to store tens of thousands of cubic feet of sets for a show that was done.

                  We saved a small number of the B5 sets for Crusade (part of the zocalo, some conference rooms, a couple of quarters and a hallway, that's about it) since we were going to be going back and forth to B5. But when Crusade went down, those sets were also elimated

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    And that is pretty much what they did. Connections were tenuous. It bore little resemblance with the B5 universe of 2262~2263. It was as if the show had been given to another studio, producer and writer, and they tried to match things up to B5 as best they could, without really trying too hard.
                    I do agree with that. I donÆt know how busy jms was with other projects at the time but it did look like he wasnÆt paying attention. (backward flying nials for example).

                    Remember, no one who worked in the FX company had been fans of the show so they had nothing to go on. TLT at least had Alec McClymont and having someone familiar with the look of the thing shows this time round.

                    As for the cgi assets being lost . . . . . . . .Well, yes(ish) but not really, at least not in their entirety. If you read the CGsociety interviews on the run up to TLT being made youÆll notice a reference to the model library being æfoundÆ and made available to Atmosphere during shooting. That same model library was also æfoundÆ and made available to GVFX (who did LOTR).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jan View Post
                      No problem, Mac. I've just moved the Rangers posts to a new thread.
                      Look, I made a new thread without making a new thread!


                      Originally posted by Jan View Post
                      I thought there were plenty of visual cues that we were in the B5 universe: The god room, the Ranger Council chamber, hyperspace and jump points.
                      I'll give you the display room and the room of the nine (Grey Council/Ranger Council, same look.). However, the signature amber and blue color of the jumppoints was almost gone. I had to sample them in Photoshop to detect the difference. In screenshots of the various jumppoints, if viewed next to one another, the difference in color is visible, but subtle. A jumppoint that is stretching out away from you, if you're on a ship entering or leaving hyperspace, should be amber (lower frequency, longer wavelength). A jumppoint that is stretching toward you as you're viewing a ship coming toward you either into or out of hyperspace should be blue (higher frequency, shorter wavelength).


                      Originally posted by Jan View Post
                      I wasn't overly thrilled at the look of Minbar even if it was at night that we were seeing it.
                      It would have been nice to see some of the familiar building types we saw during the B5 series and "In the Beginning."


                      Originally posted by Jan View Post
                      We saw the outside of the Station (sans Epsilon 3) in Rangers and even that felt a little forced to me. I can't see that having any scenes set on the station would have helped the story at all.
                      To me, it didn't feel forced; it felt strange that they stopped when they did, and those few frames were all we got to see of B5. There were only a few frames of B5 in the distance, with it barely rotating. Close-up scenes like we saw all the time on B5 (the series), and a scene or two on the station may not have helped this specific story, but it would have added a comfortable familiarity which would have cemented the story firmly in the B5 universe. Little touches go a long way to give a familial resemblance to the shows. Crusade had that; this pilot, not so much. To me, this pilot felt a lot more foreign than Crusade ever did.


                      Originally posted by Jan View Post
                      Sheridan was mentioned by G'Kar. Would showing him have helped set the pilot as its own show? I don't think it would have done anything but raise the cost of the pilot unnecessarily.
                      It's one of the little touches that I mention above. Name dropping like they did in the Rangers pilot/movie almost always rings cheap to me. It seems artificial and forced, like we had no money for the actor, so we'll ~sort of~ have him/her in this feature by having one of our characters mention him. It would have been the same if the P12 rebel teep in Crusade's "The Path of Sorrows" had mentioned Lyta (e.g. Lyta said this. Lyta did that.).



                      Originally posted by Jan View Post
                      It'll be interesting to see what JMS has to say about the movie in the upcoming book.
                      All of my questions were about the Rangers pilot/movie.



                      Originally posted by Jan View Post
                      With the exception of the look of Minbar, I didn't have any trouble with the look of the show. I expected and wanted it to be different from B5, though. Heck, with it being commissioned by the Sci-Fi Channel, I thought it was lucky that the whole pilot wasn't even more run-and-jump adventure than it was.
                      The look of Minbar, Nials flying backwards, familiar ships and B5 seen only in the distance, the Ranger Council acting like a monocaste bunch of nutjobs (reminded me of the religious cast group from "Rumors, Bargains and Lies."), klunky acting (especially by Myriam Sirois, e.g. lemme at 'im, lemme at 'im in the dojo.), klunky writing (awful lines, awfully delivered), etc..

                      Given that it was for The Sci-Fi Channel, we're lucky it didn't have Shannen Doherty and giant snakes.
                      Last edited by KoshN; 01-23-2009, 03:17 PM.
                      Mac Breck (KoshN)
                      ------------------
                      Warner Brothers is Lucy.
                      JMS and we fans are collectively Charlie Brown.
                      Babylon 5 is the football.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
                        jms said most of the B5 sets were gone because they were getting trashed; they kept some for Crusade since Babylon 5 would show up in the story from time to time.
                        By the time the Rangers pilot came around, they were all destroyed, including the B5 Zocolo set and B5 Captains Office set that was used on Crusade, and the newly constructed and elaborate Crusade sets (constructed during the first Crusade production shutdown).
                        Mac Breck (KoshN)
                        ------------------
                        Warner Brothers is Lucy.
                        JMS and we fans are collectively Charlie Brown.
                        Babylon 5 is the football.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Triple F View Post
                          I do agree with that. I don’t know how busy jms was with other projects at the time but it did look like he wasn’t paying attention. (backward flying nials for example).
                          Exactly.

                          Originally posted by Triple F View Post
                          Remember, no one who worked in the FX company had been fans of the show so they had nothing to go on. TLT at least had Alec McClymont and having someone familiar with the look of the thing shows this time round.
                          True.

                          Originally posted by Triple F View Post
                          As for the cgi assets being lost . . . . . . . .Well, yes(ish) but not really, at least not in their entirety. If you read the CGsociety interviews on the run up to TLT being made you’ll notice a reference to the model library being ‘found’ and made available to Atmosphere during shooting. That same model library was also ‘found’ and made available to GVFX (who did LOTR).
                          No. Wrong. You've misinterpreted the CGI Society articles. For Lost Tales, they got the models from the FANS who'd made their own models using Lightwave, etc. They used the fan models as a starting point, and enhanced them for the Lost Tales DVD. Warner Brothers never found any of the models. For the Rangers pilot, GVFX used the low-res. models that were given to Sierra-Havas for the aborted video game. THAT'S why we never saw anything but the new ships in closeups. GVFX made high-res. models of the new ships from scratch, and as a result, those could be shown in closeups.
                          Last edited by KoshN; 01-23-2009, 02:51 PM.
                          Mac Breck (KoshN)
                          ------------------
                          Warner Brothers is Lucy.
                          JMS and we fans are collectively Charlie Brown.
                          Babylon 5 is the football.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            What's a Nial and when did it fly backwards?

                            I have absolutely nothing to back it up but I've always wondered if some of the original effects team had archived some of the files (for resume' purposes, for instance) and those were the ones that were 'found'? Not that I don't think that fans wouldn't be perfectly capable of creating models on their own.

                            I wonder where the Starfury 'set' was hiding that they were able to find it for Lost Tales?

                            Jan
                            "Fascism always comes in quietly, holding a flag in one hand and a holy book in the other, inching its way in. The bugles and drums only sound after they've already taken over and believe it's too late to do anything about it." JMS Twitter Dec. 24, 2017

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jan View Post
                              What's a Nial and when did it fly backwards?
                              It's the Minbari (tri-lobed) fighter spacecraft, the kind that Lennier uses to go investigating the Centauri attacks on alliance ships.

                              http://archive.firstones.com/tp2b/minbari_fighter.html


                              Remember Lennier attaches it to one of the Centauri Vorchan cruisers...

                              http://archive.firstones.com/tp2b/centauri_vorchan.html

                              ...to replenish his air supply? It's also seen in many other Babylon 5 episodes, In the Beginning, Thirdspace, etc.

                              Nials were shown flying aerodynamically (i.e. backwards) above in the background when the Liandra is shown lifting off for the first time in the movie. Remember, on the Minbari fighter, the three-lobed end is the front, and the pilot's head is behind the clear bubble at the center of the three lobes. The single pointy end is aft.





                              Originally posted by Jan View Post
                              I have absolutely nothing to back it up but I've always wondered if some of the original effects team had archived some of the files (for resume' purposes, for instance) and those were the ones that were 'found'?
                              Possible, though they could never admit it to Warner Brothers. Hell, rather than being grateful, Warner Brothers would probably SUE them.

                              Originally posted by Jan View Post
                              Not that I don't think that fans wouldn't be perfectly capable of creating models on their own.
                              Many did. e.g. G'Kane, Holger Barton, etc.
                              http://www.gkane.de/b5-art.html
                              http://archive.firstones.com/tp2b/ (Though it looks like the meshes are gone. I saved some of them to my hard drive, way back when.)
                              http://www.desktopstarships.com/B5Gallery/b5.html

                              There were a lot more links, but it seems that most of them are currently dead.


                              Originally posted by Jan View Post
                              I wonder where the Starfury 'set' was hiding that they were able to find it for Lost Tales?
                              Small stuff like that was probably easier to hide, and harder to make, so it was saved.
                              Mac Breck (KoshN)
                              ------------------
                              Warner Brothers is Lucy.
                              JMS and we fans are collectively Charlie Brown.
                              Babylon 5 is the football.

                              Comment

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