This thread spoils the Technomage Trilogy!

[grumbler]

I think we are getting a bit close to spoiling the TM trilogy for some readers in the speculation over the movie. It is my fault, really - I didn't see how visible the light blue text would be when bolded.

So, if we want to discuss the TM tie-in to the movie, let's do it here where the people who want to avoid it can do so, and we cannot inadvertantly let something slip. I know I would have been plenty pissed of if the "wham" was spoiled for me.

Now, assuming that
1. the movie is about leftover shadowtech, and
2. that it includes some technomages (per the JMS hint at the Hawthorne con),
then how can we make the technomage connection to the tech? I suppose Galen could get involved just because he is a nice guy, but given what we know of the Circle's reluctance to let technomages be seen in the universe at large in this time frame, I think this is a stretch.

What WOULD get them involved is if there is a group somewhere, being coached perhaps by the Drakh (or being supported by a PsiCorps element that is scanning the Drakh to get the technological clues) that is seriously attempting to create something like the technomages themselves?

Now, you could come up with plenty of reasons why someone would want to do that, but think of this: what would a telepathic technomage NOT be capable of doing? How would you stop a PsiCorps that has such weapons?

This could easily be drawn out into a series of movies (in fact, I don't think it could be decently told in a single movie), it links all of the elements we as fans (and JMS as a Great Maker) enjoy, it would involve the original cast in the beginning (but not necessarily at the end as things become more of a rat-hunt or as the public justification for the IA being involved ends) and could be quite open-ended if the knowledge doesn't get squelched.

Plus, there could be lots of intersting subplots, like the technomages themselves trying to steal the info to continue their own order (putting Galen in quite a spot) and you could even tie it into Crusade.

This is all the most moonshinish sort of speculation, to be sure, but it sounds quite fun.

Thoughts?

[Capt.Montoya]

Full of spoilers for the Technomage Trilogy and Crusade

Grumbler:

You had suggested that TMoS could tie in to Crusade/Technomages in that Earth Alliance may have been trying to create new technomages.

From the way technomages were created as detailed in the novels I doubt that Earth Force could have developed that technology by the Telepath War/Crusade times in the B5 timeline.

If you consider that not even the Technomages themselves knew how it happened with certainty, and had no way to develop the chrysalis that grew along with their powers I doubt that EA could approach that level.

I read the unproduced Crusade scripts way too long ago, so I may be wrong on the following: I did not see evidence that Earthforce was attempting that.

I remember attempts at using Shadow Tech in ships and first attempts at enhancement of soldiers but I don't think they had gotten far enough to bonding them with Shadow Tech as technomages. If memory serves me right Galen has to battle some people gone crazy from the attempts at bonding them with left-over Shadow Tech.

The Circle expelled Galen for going out in the open, also I don't think the Circle sanctioned Galen's (unstated) motives of looking for and destroying leftover ShadowTech, which was what he tried to do in allying himself with the Excalibur. So in principle I agree that is unlikely that Galen would be a major player.

On the other hand I think that A Call to Arms left open the possibility that Galen's contact with Sheridan (and his further contact with Gideon in Crusade) were not his first transgression against the hiding, so it may still be possible.

However I think that the Shadow in TMoS could simply refer to the teepsicles that were left with Shadow vessel implants. They could play a role in a Telepath War.
Same goes for the teep-virus that Edwards industries was developing, it included Shadow tech (covertly).

I don't remember if the Centauri Prime trilogy explicitly mentioned that the other technomages (Galen's allies/pupils) helping Vir were part of the very last generation of Technomages... I assumed they were, but if you were right on your assumptions they may be part of the first generation of new technomages.

Remembering that telepaths were a Vorlon weapon againts the Shadows I have to speculate that a telepathic technomage may not even be possible (sort of a natural short-circuit between both opposing powers killing them quickly)... but I don't remember if the TM trilogy had teep-TMs or if ever a telepath could interfere with the technomages powers.

[NotKosh]

I agree and that I don't think the chrysalis tech is reproducable.

It has been stated that the stuff could be moved but in that case, answer me this:

Why would the Shadows have that stuff assembled in the heart of their homeworld? You need to transport large amounts of people, and then the tech back out. For someone as careful and reclusive as the Shadows, they would have moved the operation offworld if they could have. Therefore, they couldn't move it offworld.

Also, was or was not that tech created with the 1st technomage? I forget his name, but he was in the heart of that machine, or am I confusing him with the eye?

[NotKosh]

You can postulate that there are a few rogue technomages. There were a couple in the book, and there might be others.

At this point, the TM have to be getting pretty bored. They ran away and hid out. They were still hiding out as of Crusade. You would think by now they would get bored, and want to return.

[grumbler]

Capt Montoya:

It is true that in the scripts for Crusade there was no indication that the TM tech was being used by anyone but the TMs themselves, but this is hardly conclusive, as these scripts dalt with the beginning, not the end, of the discoveries about what the "shadowy" (if I can use that term) forces were doing with the tech.

Remember that it was the Drakh, not the Shadows, who produced it (and in fact did so all the while the Shadows were away between the Great Wars). Thus, if the Drakh are helping (or are being robbed of the info by the Psi Corps) then further developments than we have seen hinted are quite possible.

Remember that in my theory there isn't a single universal conspiracy to exploit Shadow Tech, but several of them, cooperating and competing as disctated by their needs and desires. I think this is consistent with what we have found out about such organizations as Bureau Thirteen.

You may be right about the TM tech not being compatible with "Teepness" but I dount it. the Shadows, after all, were easilyable to implant their tech into teeps such as those in "Ship of Tears" so I doubt their tech was completely incompatible with Vorlon genetic experiments.

And Galen was not "cast out" of the Technomages. He was still working for them (as seen by his reporting back to the Circle in ACtA) but was pretty clearly in the doghouse, as his comments during the show made clear. If he reported back to the Circle that someone new was making TMs, that might get their attention. They could easily be depicted as intervening without coming out of hiding, as they did when Galen went after Morden.

NotKosh,

Remember that TM tech was assembled at Z'Ha'Dum by the Drakh, when they still thought the TMs would fight for the Shadows. By the time the Shadows were moving off-planet, the issue of TM tech was dead, as the TM had fled. Perhaps, indeed, it would be a plot element that the Drakh DID move the tech off-planet after the events of "Z'Ha'Dum. That would fit into the sotry as I have outlined it quite well.

Also, there may not only have been "rougue TMs" but also some caught and given keepers. They would be the logical ones to be used to train the new "shadowy" TMs, I would think.

[Capt.Montoya]

Good points all grumbler.
It would be interesting indeed if the Drakh took the technomage production capabilities with them... considering that they fled Z'ha'dum very quickly, in a matter of a few hours, it may not have been a priority to take the TM creation machines with them but only JMS knows (and he may change his mind in such details if that suits the story)

I wouldn't be surprised if other members of the Interstellar Alliance had their own experiments with Shadow Tech... the Drazi know of it from the Centauri ship cores they had.

Something to remember is that the Drakh didn't have all the knowledge of the Shadows (e.g. when their planetkiller was destroyed they could not create a new one), so anything the Drakh didn't take with them from Z'ha'dum or that they didn't have in other planet they might not be able to reproduce in any immediate future. I'd always assumed that technomage creations was one of the things the Drakh were capable of doing without understanding it. I always envisioned them more as technicians/machine-operators working for the Shadows, good for the practical aspects, but not the theory of Shadow Tech.
But I may be wrong on that one too.

[Joseph DeMartino]

Actually the unfilmed Crusade scripts make it clear that EarthGov and specifically elements within EarthForce have been working on Shadowtech for about 10 years by 2267. Gideon's old ship the Cerberus was destroyed by an EF Shadowtech experiment gone wrong - a fact confirmed by the Technomage novels.

And in "To the Ends of the Earth" Gideon (and later Galen) penetrate a secret EarthForce base where Human subjects are being merged with something very like "the tech" - although it is unclear if they are supposed to be finished "technomages" bonded to the tech or simply host organisms in which Chrysalis are growing. But the commander of the base knows all about the Technomages, their association with the Shadows and their flight - although he believes that they were running from EarthGov and not the Shadows, because they had collectively refused to "share" their knowledge. (Which doesn't mean that one or two rogues didn't help the Terrans.)

INT. CAVERN û RESEARCH FACILITY (CGI)

Huge, a mile or more across. A great open pit where high tech structures have been built into the walls of the cavern. Catwalks and other support structures ribbon the area above, almost (but not quite) like spider webs. Pinpoints of light and spotlights. Large machines on rails move back and forth, carrying pieces of shadow-style ship parts to assembly lines. Give this a good long moment. This has to be our best, most detailed and realistic CGI to date. Possibly use multiple shots. We can make out movement in the darkness, human forms, but theyÆre in darkness and we canÆt make out details yet.

ANGLE û ON ENTRANCE

WeÆre on a ledge overlooking all this. We INTERCUT the above with close-ups of Gideon, taking it all in, until finally à

GIDEON
à my godà.

Then he hears a sound. Someone has come up nearby. He turns.

And sees something terribleà and impossible. ItÆs a human, or more properly what was once a human female. But its skin is covered with black, hard matter, similar to a shadow vessel carapace. (Prosthetic is similar in some ways to DelennÆs shell in ôRevelations.ö) They both freeze for a BEAT, each looking at the other in surpriseà

Then she points at him, eyes widening, and lets out an inhuman HOWL (use some shadow-scream sounds in this).

- From the unfilmed Crusade script "The End of the Line" by J. Michael Straczynski. (c) 1999 Synthetic Worlds, Ltd.

Regards,

Joe

[Dr Maturin]

Man, I am getting excited.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino

...its skin is covered with black, hard matter, similar to a shadow vessel carapace...

It strikes me that I have heard this description before. This sounds very much like the shadow-wkin imparted by the TM tech. Interesting, Joe. Very interesting. Did JMS have in mind the very scenario that I am proposing?

[Joseph DeMartino]

Did JMS have in mind the very scenario that I am proposing?

Not quite. But ... something similar?

(I'm not just being a pain, here. What evidence exists in the form of the unpublished scripts and other hints is enough to suggest that he is after something that isn't quite what you suggest, but not enough to really know what it is.)

This sounds very much like the shadow-wkin imparted by the TM tech.

Which Galen uses later in the same episode, and which we would have seen side-by-side with the "Shadow Skin". JMS's description makes clear both the differences and the similarities, although it is impossible to tell if the differences are inherent in the underlying technologies or due to EarthForce's efforts being rather crude in comparison to the tech the Shadows gave the Mages. The commander of the base claims that EarthForce got the tech the same way the Mages did - by stealing it from the Shadows.

You may be right about the TM tech not being compatible with "Teepness" but I dount it. the Shadows, after all, were easilyable to implant their tech into teeps such as those in "Ship of Tears" so I doubt their tech was completely incompatible with Vorlon genetic experiments.

Well, they were able to implant the same tools in their propsed teep CPUs that they implanted in their "mundane" units - but I'm not sure how "easy" that process is in any case, and I'm not sure how successful in the Teep's case. Sheridan got their entire shipment of implanted teepsicles, after all, so they never had a chance to try them out in Shadow vessels. They may not have worked much better in them than they did in Lefcourt's destroyers. They may have all gone mad the way improperly "conditioned" mundanes do because their telepathic abilities would make them even more vulnerable to being overwhelmed by the machines. Interesting questions. Maybe we'll get a hint in TMoS.

Regards,

Joe

[NotKosh]

I don't remember the Drakh being associated with the TM tech.

From what I know of the shadows, there was a whole host of races doing various things. We can point to the Drakh, the humans, the pilot of the freighter in Ship of Tears, and we know there was more.

I felt the Drahk were the manipulators and schemers of the shadow allies. Their tech was organic and parasitic. I don't view them as being in the same field as the TM tech.

[Dr Maturin]

In any case, JMS must be a big fan of cybernetics. You got Abbut...you got Project Lazarus, you got the techno-mages. That means that Earth is pretty much obsessed with it, too, then. The tech is a chance to finally make Lazarus work.

[circularREASON]

Wow - JDM.

I have never seen this before.

the words 'Bloody hell' spring to mind.


(If this is a vision of what may be to come then I am sooooo looking forward to what JMS can do with TMoS. )

[Dipper]

I can't imagine JMS taking TMs from the hiding. From what I understood from the trilogy they'd have to build new places of power. I think this would be too much for the already reluctant TMs.

I don't remember the last book of the trilogy giving any hint to how many if any were able to become one with the tech. Galen on the other hand is roaming around the galaxy happy as a butterfly with out a place of power and thus makes a good candidate for the upcoming movie.


Coming to think of it, so does Alwyn and in Crusade he doesn't have a place of power, atleast in the next village/planet he's going to.

There goes my argument ) Still I believe that places of power are pivotal for the TMs and they are severely diminished by their absence. Or have I understood the concept totally ?

[Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt]

I agree with your point. I see the Places of Power as growing and evolving with the TM - it has large rewards but also creates other problems in tandem. Kind of like how Sauron put a hugh chunk of his power into the One Ring, a TM invests a large part of himself/herself into his/her Place.

I don't remember.....how long did the TM's live once they were merged? How old was Galen?