Ranger One

[dagaz]

Another book thread...

Inspired by the other thread about the TM I also dashed off to amazon and ordered the TM trilogy.

And then I remembered that there was a series of B5 books about Sinclair... only I could not locate them. Perhaps I just imagined them.

In the hope it was not my fevered imagination, can some kind person post up the book titles, or better yet, the ISBN?

Presumably they are worth reading?

[grumbler]

there were some comic book issues featuring Sinclair, but they didn't make a lot of sense and weren't all that good.

The book To Dream in the City of Sorrows OTOH is pretty good, if a bit silly at times. I think JMS called it "90% canon" or something like that (look it up in his posts, I am too lazy!). Not a series, though.

[AmyG]

As Grumbler says, it's not a series, but "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" is about how Sinclair became Entil'zha. Key players in the story are also Catherine Sakai and Marcus Cole.

Despite the lukewarm review by Grumbler, I really liked this one!

Aisling

[Kevin]

Originally posted by grumbler
there were some comic book issues featuring Sinclair, but they didn't make a lot of sense and weren't all that good.

The book To Dream in the City of Sorrows OTOH is pretty good, if a bit silly at times. I think JMS called it "90% canon" or something like that (look it up in his posts, I am too lazy!). Not a series, though.

No, JMS called it the only B5 book that is 100% cannon.

[Jan]

Originally posted by Kevin
No, JMS called it the only B5 book that is 100% cannon.

I'd hope so since it was so easy for the author to do her research on the B5 universe! <g> For those who don't know, the author of 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows' is Kathryn Drennan who wrote 'By Any Means Necessary' and who's married to JMS.

Jan

[Joseph DeMartino]

No, JMS called it the only B5 book that is 100% cannon.

That's what he says in the preface to the book, but he later backed off that a tiny it and mentioned a figure of 90% or 95%. Don't forget, the show was still in production when the book was published, and then when the series went to TNT and Crusade was ramping up, he expected to be doing two to four B5 TV movies a year for the network. So I think he continued to refine his thinking about Sinclair and Valen and that some of his later ideas might have varied a bit from what was set down in the novels.

As has previously been discussed in a couple of threads here, JMS has not been above apparently contradicting even things that appear on-screen if production problems require it or a better dramatic idea crosses his mind. (Hence Sheridan's battle with the Black Star and how it was depicted in ItB: taking place outside the Sol system, earlier in the war than was implied in the episodes and his distress call ruse being a last desparate attempt to survive rather than the cold-blooded ambush it is made to seem when the event is discussed in S2.)

Similarly although he outlined the three Del Rey trilogies, and was involved in editing them, he does not hold himself bound by everything each of the authors invented in telling those stories, and will not let them prevent him from changning things if he ever deals with the events in them (or which flow from them) on screen in flashback or otherwise. Generally speaking only what is on-screen is 100% "canon", except when even it isn't. (As with the description of Zathras materializing in "B2" and the actual event seen in "WWE")

Finally JMS just screws up sometimes. Addings and subtractings not being Zathras's strong suit, he could be just plain sloppy with chronology and he often missed dating errors in his own work and that of others. (Delenn probably hasn't been pregnant long enough for David to be born in 2262 and Londo's visit is awfully late in the year, but he has to be in order to turn 16 before the end of 2278. He also has to get Keepered and transported to C.P. within a matter of days in order for "WWE" to take place before the start of 2279. The dating problem is only compounded n Peter David's Centauri Trilogy, because the time line given him seems to be calculated based on a key date that was six months or a year off - I forget which. So he has Londo visiting the Sheridan's way too late, and is reduced to having David Sheridan celebrate his birthday based on the shorter Minbari year in order to have him turn 16 at the right point in the story. And JMS never caught any of this while he was reviewing the manuscript.)

JMS had a similar problem with military rank, but we won't get into that here.

Regards,

Joe

[grumbler]

Originally posted by AislingGrey
Despite the lukewarm review by Grumbler, I really liked this one!

Perhaps it came off more lukewarm than I intended (because I did like the book and recommend it) but there are moments that struck me as contrived, like the "new technology" Minbari fighters that we never see again, or the fact that the Shadows suddenly mess up and leave a survivor when they destroy an outpost because that survivor happens to be a major charactor.

It is hard to fit the requirements of "canon" into any book, and I don't judge Drennan harshly because these were the "outs" that she took, but I feel I need to point out that the book, while excellent, isn't without flaws that a discerning reader will note.

But then, I enjoy a mystery as much as anyone.

[B5_Obsessed]

And JMS never caught any of this while he was reviewing the manuscript.)

Regards,

Joe [/B]

Not to mention something as obvious as Sheridan's clean shaven face in WWE, which fans were already confused about because the grey in Sheridan's hair was often hard to see. Most fans didn't think he looked 17 years older. There's a part in the book where Delenn comments on his beard. I thought for sure he'd come out later sporting a shave. Oh well.

[Andrew_Swallow]

Originally posted by grumbler
Perhaps it came off more lukewarm than I intended (because I did like the book and recommend it) but there are moments that struck me as contrived, like the "new technology" Minbari fighters that we never see again, or the fact that the Shadows suddenly mess up and leave a survivor when they destroy an outpost because that survivor happens to be a major charactor.

Lenier flew one of these fighters in Season 5 "Meditation on the Abyss".

[Joseph DeMartino]

Perhaps it came off more lukewarm than I intended (because I did like the book and recommend it) but there are moments that struck me as contrived, like the "new technology" Minbari fighters that we never see again

Of course we see them again - they're called the White Stars.

The "fighters" that they use in To Dream are small-scale test-beds for the new hybrid Minbari-Vorlon technologies, no more intended as prototypes for a line of new fighters than any of the "X" planes were. Contrived? Drennnan gave us a glimpse into what must have been a long-term and very elaborate development project on Minbar and if anything made the sudden appearance of the first White Star on the ship seem less contrived.

As for Lennier's fighter in S5 - I don't recall any references to this being anything other than a standard Minbari fighter, but I it has been awhile since I've watched S5.

And the Shadows have missed people before. Keffer wasn't killed the first time he came upon a Shadow vessel, and a number of people (including Garibaldi and Sinclair, in a comic book written by JMS) lived to tell the tale when a Shadow ship came to dig another up at Mars.

Regards,

Joe

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Andrew_Swallow
Lenier flew one of these fighters in Season 5 "Meditation on the Abyss".

The fighter he flew look like a standard Minbari fighter to me, but perhaps you are right. It was the only instance I can think of where a White Star was carrying fighters, so perhaps the fighters were somehow unique in this episode.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
Of course we see them again - they're called the White Stars.

The "fighters" that they use in To Dream are small-scale test-beds for the new hybrid Minbari-Vorlon technologies, no more intended as prototypes for a line of new fighters than any of the "X" planes were. Contrived? Drennnan gave us a glimpse into what must have been a long-term and very elaborate development project on Minbar and if anything made the sudden appearance of the first White Star on the ship seem less contrived.

Sure, Joe. And the P-38 fighter was the small-scale test-bed for the Iowa class battleships! It doesn't work that way, even in the B5 universe.

And the Shadows have missed people before. Keffer wasn't killed the first time he came upon a Shadow vessel, and a number of people (including Garibaldi and Sinclair, in a comic book written by JMS) lived to tell the tale when a Shadow ship came to dig another up at Mars.

Neither of these were equivelent to the "wiping out of outposts" that the Shadows undertook in the series, where they deliberately set out to prevent any survivors being able to tell who had attacked.

Regards,

grumbler

[Kevin]

Originally posted by grumbler
The fighter he flew look like a standard Minbari fighter to me, but perhaps you are right. It was the only instance I can think of where a White Star was carrying fighters, so perhaps the fighters were somehow unique in this episode.

No, it was a normal Minbari fighter. And the White Star was also carrying fighters in Objects at Rest.

As for the fighters... eh. It's kind of a hard point to contest, since technology now dosen't work like technology in the future, but even still it's hard to imagine some fighter-style prototypes being made for a larger warship happening. Even still... tis my favourite book of the bunch.

[Joseph DeMartino]

Sure, Joe. And the P-38 fighter was the small-scale test-bed for the Iowa class battleships! It doesn't work that way, even in the B5 universe.

It doesn't work that way because you're comparing apples and oranges, while I'm comparing apples and apples.

A P-38 opertated in the air, an Iowa-class operated in the ocean. Powerplant, controls, "sensors" such as they were, all operated very differently.

A fighter of the type depicted in To Dream and a Whitestar both operate in space, smartass, so propulsion systems, power plants, sensors and controls could all be tested in the small scale version and the lessons learned applied directly to the big one. A P-38 may not have been a testbed for an Iowa-class, but you can be damned sure that various things that went into the Iowas were tested first on smaller ships, just as today technologies that will eventually go into surface warships and submarines are being tested on dinky little one and two man testbeds. Fighters in the B5 universe are first and foremost spacecraft just like the big vessels, even if their role is that of fighter. The proper analogy to what I suggested would have been a PT boat or a destroyer, not an aircraft.

But, hey, don't take my word for it. Kathryn Drennan herself says exactly the same thing right there in the dialogue. (General note: If you're going to argue about a book, especially if you're going to criticize a book, read the book. )

"It sounds good in theory," Sinclair said. "But the reality is we simply don't have any ships that can match up to Shadow vessels"

"There are no true Shadow vessels at the rift," said Rathenn. "...They have sent their allies instead, in small fighters... We believe there are only four of them guarding ... the aparatus."

"Four or four hundred, it doesn't matter. You know we don't have access to fighters or warships suitable for a mission like this."

"That is no longer true."

"The Whitestar ships!" Sinclair said suddenly, as Rathenn nodded. "They're finally ready?"

"Three small, exprimental prototypes are. These are single-pilot ships built to test the technology that is being used in the larger warships." [Italics added - jd]

--- Kathryn M. Drennan, To Dream in the City of Sorrows (c) 1997 Dell Publishing. Del Rey Books edition pages 289 to 290

I guess someone had better explain to JMS's wife how things work in the B5 universe.

Regards,

Joe

[Joseph DeMartino]

Neither of these were equivelent to the "wiping out of outposts" that the Shadows undertook in the series, where they deliberately set out to prevent any survivors being able to tell who had attacked.

Neither was the battle at the rift, where Shadow minions (not the Shadows themselves, see post above) were defending (not attacking) a strategic location in space (not an outpost)

Regards,

Joe