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TLT - B5's Ownership

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  • #16
    [QUOTE=grumbler;50337]
    NATO is merely the tenant of such bases, just as the US is just a tenant of bases in the UK, Germany, Italy, etc. The host maintains sovereignty, though the tenant exercises operational control.

    Its a good analogy, IMO.
    Actually, that sounds like the situation on the station exactly if the roles are reversed: the ISA formally purchases the station and holds sovereignty over it, but accepts the EAF as tenants to run it.

    Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
    Um I don't think he meant zero people come here, just that it isn't heavily traveled. And a huge station not being used would get in one's way.
    I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. The station may be big, but space is vast. It's well established in the show that the station is a reasonable distance from the jump-gate, and that the planet (originally thought to be dead, and since declared out-of-bounds) is not going to be well-travelled. In the general area, surely the station is a tiny, easily avoidable speck compared to the planet itself and its satellite (I believe the station orbits between the two?), but no-one worries about them being a 'hazard to navigation'.

    I believe at other times when asked about it JMS has come up with the far more reasonable answer of not leaving the technology and resources tied up in the station to be scavenged. Maybe the 'hazard to navigation' line can be imagined to be a bit of nonsensical spin to cover the real reason of preventing the carcass being picked over by vultures.

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    • #17
      Nitpicking here, but we have seen ships coming out of the jumpgate directly on a collision course with the station.

      Mir was also deorbited. It's a logical thing to do. You don't want an old station just floating about. If something is old and falling apart, you get rid of it to make space for something new, or at least to prevent people from hurting themselves.
      Jonas Kyratzes | Lands of Dream

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      • #18
        Originally posted by raw_bean View Post
        I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. The station may be big, but space is vast. It's well established in the show that the station is a reasonable distance from the jump-gate, and that the planet (originally thought to be dead, and since declared out-of-bounds) is not going to be well-travelled. In the general area, surely the station is a tiny, easily avoidable speck compared to the planet itself and its satellite (I believe the station orbits between the two?), but no-one worries about them being a 'hazard to navigation'.
        The station orbits around the L5 point of Epsilon 3, which is a point that ships will actually head for, because the quickest way from the jumpgate to the planet would be through the L5 point, since L5 is along the orbital path of the planet, which means you can use the gravity of the planet instead of having to use your ship's engines. This also means it's the natural way for ships to be pulled after exiting the jumpgate. You can also see that this is indeed the path that ships will be pulled in the episode "Soul Hunter." It's not big stuff like planets that are a hazard, it's small stuff that gets in the way. Space debris is a problem that NASA and other space agencies deal with in the present day, and we're not talking large objects by any measure. I would imagine the jumpgate has some kind of identification so ships would know where it was and avoid it, and most ships will have come into the sector by the jumpgate anyway. If the station is just a husk floating there, it'll get in the way.
        Last edited by JoeD80; 09-15-2008, 12:35 PM.

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        • #19
          Lochley wore the uniform. The security people wore a different uniform in season 5. Corwin appears to not wear any uniform at all. I am not sure what that is supposed to mean, but these people all still appear to be in Earthforce.

          Why would the IA buy the station? That gets right to the sovereignty issue you are talking about. As a commissioned station of Earth, Lochley has the authority to do what she does. If the station is not under anyone's sovereign control (and I share your sentiments about IA sovereignty, but sovereign it must be if it is exercising lawful use of on the station that belongs to it) then Lochley has no such authority.
          Sheridan, as President of the ISA, appointed Lochley so she holds the office under an ISA commission (or possibly a Ranger's commission). This is also the reason Sheridan and Delenn can over-ride her. This appears to be a secondment so Lochley is still an Earth Force officer.
          Andrew Swallow

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          • #20
            Originally posted by raw_bean View Post
            Actually, that sounds like the situation on the station exactly if the roles are reversed: the ISA formally purchases the station and holds sovereignty over it, but accepts the EAF as tenants to run it.
            Except that the gate guards at the NATO/US bases with the power to use deadly force are nationals of the host country, and respond to the orders of the host nation's resident commander (the analog of Lochley).

            I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. The station may be big, but space is vast. It's well established in the show that the station is a reasonable distance from the jump-gate, and that the planet (originally thought to be dead, and since declared out-of-bounds) is not going to be well-travelled. In the general area, surely the station is a tiny, easily avoidable speck compared to the planet itself and its satellite (I believe the station orbits between the two?), but no-one worries about them being a 'hazard to navigation'.

            I believe at other times when asked about it JMS has come up with the far more reasonable answer of not leaving the technology and resources tied up in the station to be scavenged. Maybe the 'hazard to navigation' line can be imagined to be a bit of nonsensical spin to cover the real reason of preventing the carcass being picked over by vultures.
            Yes, I thin the latter is probably the truer reason, but one JMS hadn't thought out when he was writing the script (he was under a time constraint, while the questioners have not been).

            But I still say the reason it was blown up was because it had always been blown up... and because it was better TV. We play the game of "what if the canon was like real life" and that is fun, but we have to acknowledge that many of the things done on the show were for dramatic, and not logical, reasons (like the whole "sound in space" issue).
            I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Andrew_Swallow View Post
              Sheridan, as President of the ISA, appointed Lochley so she holds the office under an ISA commission (or possibly a Ranger's commission). This is also the reason Sheridan and Delenn can over-ride her. This appears to be a secondment so Lochley is still an Earth Force officer.
              How does Sheridan get the power to give Lochley what amounts to life-or-death power over the defenders of the station? Who runs the justice system, if the IA is the "sovereign power?" Under what laws? By what authority? If a Drazi signs a commercial deal with a martian on babylon 5, does the IA actually have a commercial code that would allow for its enforcement? Who passed that law, in that case?

              I can understand why people would assume that the IA bought the station, because it was mentioned as a future action in the series. In the spirit of "what if the canon were true?," though, I am pointing out that it makes a lot more sense if the IA just leased B5 as a tenant rather than purchasing it and getting themselves into a real legal ball of wax (and my theory also explains why earth would take back control of an obsolete facility that needed to be disposed of).

              The strongest argument against my theory, I think, is the change in security uniforms, implying that this is no longer IA security, but something new. I can possibly counter by pointig out that maybe ALL EA security adopted the new, more practical, uniform.

              I am guessing that Corwin never wears a uniform because JMS couldn't decide whether or not to make him the station XO (he was way junior for such a slot), and realized that, sans uniform, he didn't ever need to decide.
              I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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              • #22
                First, I get that having the station blow up is good Hollywood, and if JMS had said it was a Hollywood moment designed to ensure there wouldn't be any follow-on B5 shows, I would "get" that.

                Second, even if 80% of the station burned up in the planet's atmosphere, that still leaves 20% of 5 million tons of metal or 1 million tons of debris as a hazard to navigation or an impact hazard to the planet below. If one thinks that's "not that much", check out the Wikipedia link on Space Debris. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_debris). Mir being de-orbited was mentioned by comparison - but Mir was "only" 134 tons and was expected to result in
                "Around 1,500 fragments, weighing between 13 to 19 tons, are expected to survive the burning dash through Earth's atmosphere."
                (http://www.space.com/missionlaunches...es_010321.html).

                Detonating a station the size of B5 would surely result in fragments bigger than that.

                Finally, one wouldn't need to manufacture boosters, etc to push it into the sun since this storyline had all kinds of big ships in it. Given that, there had to be a space version of a tug that could give the station the necessary velocity to get it to the sun, although the trip there wouldn't have been as good TV.
                Last edited by timk519; 09-15-2008, 05:14 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by timk519 View Post
                  First, I get that having the station blow up is good Hollywood, and if JMS had said it was a Hollywood moment designed to ensure there wouldn't be any follow-on B5 shows, I would "get" that.
                  No, it's the fact that Babylon 5 was always meant to blow up at the end of the series one way or the other. That didn't have to do with whether another show would be produced, considering the original double series idea had B5 blowing up at the end of the first five years, and having five years *follow* that.

                  Originally posted by timk519 View Post
                  Second, even if 80% of the station burned up in the planet's atmosphere, that still leaves 20% of 5 million tons of metal or 1 million tons of debris as a hazard to navigation or an impact hazard to the planet below.
                  This is real simple. Draal cleaned up the little pieces. Didn't you see that episode? No?

                  Finally, one wouldn't need to manufacture boosters, etc to push it into the sun since this storyline had all kinds of big ships in it. Given that, there had to be a space version of a tug that could give the station the necessary velocity to get it to the sun, although the trip there wouldn't have been as good TV.
                  What ship would be able to pull something the size of B5? Maybe there was an old Vorlon ship lying around that could do it, but I think the Earth Alliance's biggest ships were supposed to be the Explorer Class ships like in "A Distant Star", which don't seem capable of towing a five-mile station.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by timk519 View Post
                    but Mir was "only" 134 tons and was expected to result in "Around 1,500 fragments, weighing between 13 to 19 tons, are expected to survive the burning dash through Earth's atmosphere."
                    I realize this is the article's problem, but that math doesn't make sense. How can 134 tons split into 1500 fragments of 13 tons.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
                      No, it's the fact that Babylon 5 was always meant to blow up at the end of the series one way or the other. That didn't have to do with whether another show would be produced, considering the original double series idea had B5 blowing up at the end of the first five years, and having five years *follow* that.
                      5 more years of B-something would've been cool.

                      Ah well.

                      Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
                      This is real simple. Draal cleaned up the little pieces. Didn't you see that episode? No?
                      'fraid not. I wonder what would've happened if something big hit something critical on Epsilon 3. That would've been interesting.

                      Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
                      What ship would be able to pull something the size of B5? Maybe there was an old Vorlon ship lying around that could do it, but I think the Earth Alliance's biggest ships were supposed to be the Explorer Class ships like in "A Distant Star", which don't seem capable of towing a five-mile station.
                      The station's in vacuum - all that would be needed to do was to give it enough boost to get it out of the Lagrange point. That, in combination with the station's own thrusters should've been enough to get it out of orbit and on it's way.
                      Last edited by timk519; 09-15-2008, 05:38 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
                        I realize this is the article's problem, but that math doesn't make sense. How can 134 tons split into 1500 fragments of 13 tons.
                        They were moving at relativistic velocities and gained mass as they got faster?

                        I'm guessing 13-19 tons was the expected upper limit weight for the fragments.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by timk519 View Post
                          The station's in vacuum - all that would be needed to do was to give it enough boost to get it out of the Lagrange point. That, in combination with the station's own thrusters should've been enough to get it out of orbit and on it's way.
                          If you do that the space station ends up in orbit around the sun. The station would have to be put into an elliptical orbit that crashes into the sun and hopefully gets there in less than a 1000 years.
                          Andrew Swallow

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Andrew_Swallow View Post
                            If you do that the space station ends up in orbit around the sun. The station would have to be put into an elliptical orbit that crashes into the sun and hopefully gets there in less than a 1000 years.
                            The Centari didn't have that problem when using mass-drivers to bomb Narn.

                            Second, I would expect the station to be vaporized way before it "crashed" into the sun. 7K degress C is way above the melting point of most metals I know of - unless B5 was constructed of some super-heat-resistant alloy with a higher temperature rating.

                            Thermal info from http://www.solarviews.com/eng/sun.htm

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                            • #29
                              I think you guys are way over thinking it. Put it in terms of decommissioning ceremonies for naval vessels. More specifically, aircraft carriers, we don't see huge ships equal to or larger than the aircraft carrier pulling them out to destroy them. Instead, and Grumbler can correct me if i am mistaken, but they usually use 4 tugs to pull them away from the dock, then couple of destroyers to tow them to the desired spot. By this point all valuable and dangerous items (nuclear reactors, weapons, etc.) have been removed well in advance of the "official" ceremony.
                              Then on the day of the "Actual" decommissioning, the Dignitaries have a small ceremony aboard ship, afterwhich, when they are safely away, we get the big bang.

                              I say B5's destruction was the same. Only the hull, major supports, and the area surrounding the ceremony were left. What we saw was simply placed charges for the weak points to make the station explode in a certain way.
                              There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against such power, governments, and kingdoms, and conquerors cannot stand.
                              WE WILL BE FREE!

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