TLT - B5's Ownership

[BabylonRebel]

Who is meant to be the primary government behind Babylon 5 in The Lost Tales? I noticed officers walking about in Earth Alliance uniforms and security guards in Army of Light uniforms.

[Garibaldi's Hair]

IIRC, B5 returned to Earth jurisdiction at the time the ISA was formed, but the Allinace maintained political "rule" over the station until the end of season 5, when the ISA headquarters move to Minbar.

Perhaps the security guards just found the Army of Light uniforms more comfortable.

[glindros]

IIRC, B5 returned to Earth jurisdiction at the time the ISA was formed, but the Allinace maintained political "rule" over the station until the end of season 5, when the ISA headquarters move to Minbar.

Perhaps the security guards just found the Army of Light uniforms more comfortable.

Perhaps the ISA kept the Army of Light uniforms for their own security or honor guard, and these are members of that. The ISA staff would have to be composed of more than just Rangers.

Everything except political decisions were turned back to the EA early in season 5. While I don't know if it was stated on screen that all power was turned over when ISA headquarters is up and running in Tuzenor, Sheridan did make a comment that that would happen.

[Andrew_Swallow]

The ISA purchased Babylon 5 off the Earth Alliance early in Season 5.

[grumbler]

I think the ISA more like "rented" B5 in season 5, and a lot of ISA functions (like intel) remained there, in the more central location, until it wasn't central anymore and reverted to Earth control.

Earth still provided the "host services" (like Lockley's command, dock operations, and security functions) while it was rented to the ISA.

In other words, it was like an office building owned and serviced by Earth, but with all the rooms rented to the ISA. Security, maintenance, janitorial services, and the like are still handled by the landlord while the tenant calls the shots on who gets what offices.

[Kevin]

I think the ISA more like "rented" B5 in season 5, and a lot of ISA functions (like intel) remained there, in the more central location, until it wasn't central anymore and reverted to Earth control.

Earth still provided the "host services" (like Lockley's command, dock operations, and security functions) while it was rented to the ISA.

In other words, it was like an office building owned and serviced by Earth, but with all the rooms rented to the ISA. Security, maintenance, janitorial services, and the like are still handled by the landlord while the tenant calls the shots on who gets what offices.

This is like, one of those things that's misunderstood and keeps on coming up again and again like a bad penny. Although considering how convoluted the political/military structure of just about anything ISA related in the fifth Season is, it's understandable.

To quote, from No Compromises...

LOCHLEY: It's my understanding that Babylon 5 is to remain an independent state pending decision by the Alliance to formally buy it from Earth.

SHERIDAN: That's correct.

The only reason Lochely is stationed on B5 is because...

LOCHLEY: Then why bring in someone from EarthForce to run things? Why not someone else?

SHERIDAN: Tradition for one thing. For another, we're still trying to heal the wounds from the civil war back home. Putting someone from EarthForce in charge of B5 will help cement us with the folks back there, military and civilian... In a way it's saying, We're independent, but in a way we'll always remember where we came from.

It was bought. And one could argue from there that Lochley's the only official EA officer there, at least during Season 5.

Not sure what to think of the EA officers walking around in Lost Tales, but my guess would be that they were around because... well, those were just some of the costumes they had leftover in decent condition in storage There's a lot of questions one can throw out from Lost Tales, and I prefer just to enjoy those two stores for what they are and not think too much about the details.

[grumbler]

This is like, one of those things that's misunderstood and keeps on coming up again and again like a bad penny. Although considering how convoluted the political/military structure of just about anything ISA related in the fifth Season is, it's understandable.

To quote, from No Compromises...

LOCHLEY: It's my understanding that Babylon 5 is to remain an independent state pending decision by the Alliance to formally buy it from Earth.

SHERIDAN: That's correct.

The only reason Lochely is stationed on B5 is because...

LOCHLEY: Then why bring in someone from EarthForce to run things? Why not someone else?

SHERIDAN: Tradition for one thing. For another, we're still trying to heal the wounds from the civil war back home. Putting someone from EarthForce in charge of B5 will help cement us with the folks back there, military and civilian... In a way it's saying, We're independent, but in a way we'll always remember where we came from.

It was bought. And one could argue from there that Lochley's the only official EA officer there, at least during Season 5.

Not sure what to think of the EA officers walking around in Lost Tales, but my guess would be that they were around because... well, those were just some of the costumes they had leftover in decent condition in storage There's a lot of questions one can throw out from Lost Tales, and I prefer just to enjoy those two stores for what they are and not think too much about the details.

Disagree that the fact that it was mentioned that the ISA was planning to buy the station means that it definitely was, in fact, bought. I can think of no circumstances in which Earthforce officers could have law enforcement powers in a station not under Earth Alliance sovereignty.

So while this may be, "like, one of those things that's misunderstood and keeps on coming up again and again like a bad penny" it comes up because the explanation that Earthforce officers retained law enforcement capability on a station under the sovereign control of another government is highly dubious, while it makes perfect sense that they would do so while the station is under earth sovereignty but simply Alliance control.

Further, the station is not destroyed by the Alliance, but rather by Earth. Why would Earth take back the station just so it could pay the costs of decommissioning and destroying it? That makes no sesne. What does make sense is that the "lease" expired and Earth, having no further use for the station, still had to get rid of it.

My answer gets rid of all the niggles you mention and a bunch that you ignore, and is as consistent with what we know happened as anything other answer, while introducing only the niggle that, at one point, the Alliance might have had plans to buy the station outright.

Oh, and Corwin, the tech crews, the defense forces, and the command staff (all EA) were there throughout season 5, contrary to your assertion.

[raw_bean]

Yet Corwin et al didn't wear EarthForce uniforms in Season 5, as I recall. And I'm a bit sceptical of referring to the ISA as a 'sovereign government'. Sovereign government of where, and what? ALL it's holdings, headquarters, personnel, ships, etc. are provided by it's member governments. Is it so unreasonable to think that it bought the station, but still asked Earthforce to provide it with the personnel to run it, out of tradition and smoothing of feathers as the quoted dialogue suggests?

What if it was a military base recently given over to NATO by some new member country, but still staffed by that country's quota of NATO-devoted personnel out of tradition and to keep continuity?

FYI that's a loose analogy only and I don't know if it makes sense in the real world, but it does in my head and in my feeling of the B5 set-up.

[JoeD80]

Further, the station is not destroyed by the Alliance, but rather by Earth. Why would Earth take back the station just so it could pay the costs of decommissioning and destroying it? That makes no sesne. What does make sense is that the "lease" expired and Earth, having no further use for the station, still had to get rid of it.

The dialogue from "Sleeping in Light":

NILS: But since this place was turned back over to Earth control a few years ago, and what with the recent budget cutbacks, and so much of what Babylon 5 stands for being done now by the Alliance, well no one comes here anymore; it's...well it's become sort of redundant

SHERIDAN: Redundant.

NILS: Yes sir. Earthdome says its to be decomissioned and taken out. Well we can't just leave it here; it would be a menace to navigation.

SHERIDAN: Of course. It looks like we're still tied together, even now.

[glindros]

The dialogue from "Sleeping in Light":

Joe, I can't believe you would stoop to making your case with actual dialog from the show. You've got alot of nerve

[timk519]

The dialogue from "Sleeping in Light":
NILS: But since this place was turned back over to Earth control a few years ago, and what with the recent budget cutbacks, and so much of what Babylon 5 stands for being done now by the Alliance, well no one comes here anymore; it's...well it's become sort of redundant

SHERIDAN: Redundant.

NILS: Yes sir. Earthdome says its to be decomissioned and taken out. Well we can't just leave it here; it would be a menace to navigation.

Pardon the threadjack, but the notion that the station was redundant, and nobody came here doesn't jive with it being a menace to navigation.

And the solution being to blow it up and spread 5 million tons of metal all over the place isn't a menace to navigation?

I think a better solution would've been to put some boosters on it and fire it into the sun ala Kosh's ship after Kosh died.

[JoeD80]

Pardon the threadjack, but the notion that the station was redundant, and nobody came here doesn't jive with it being a menace to navigation.

And the solution being to blow it up and spread 5 million tons of metal all over the place isn't a menace to navigation?

I think a better solution would've been to put some boosters on it and fire it into the sun ala Kosh's ship after Kosh died.

Um I don't think he meant zero people come here, just that it isn't heavily traveled. And a huge station not being used would get in one's way.

jms in 2001 about the remaining debris:

Except of course that nobody much goes by there anymore to begin with, which is one of the main reasons for blowing it up, and 80% of the debris would be pulled down by the local planet's gravity field and burn up [in] the atmosphere.

[grumbler]

Yet Corwin et al didn't wear EarthForce uniforms in Season 5, as I recall.

[QUOTE] Lochley wore the uniform. The security people wore a different uniform in season 5. Corwin appears to not wear any uniform at all. I am not sure what that is supposed to mean, but these people all still appear to be in Earthforce.

And I'm a bit sceptical of referring to the ISA as a 'sovereign government'. Sovereign government of where, and what? ALL it's holdings, headquarters, personnel, ships, etc. are provided by it's member governments. Is it so unreasonable to think that it bought the station, but still asked Earthforce to provide it with the personnel to run it, out of tradition and smoothing of feathers as the quoted dialogue suggests?

Why would the IA buy the station? That gets right to the sovereignty issue you are talking about. As a commissioned station of Earth, Lochley has the authority to do what she does. If the station is not under anyone's sovereign control (and I share your sentiments about IA sovereignty, but sovereign it must be if it is exercising lawful use of on the station that belongs to it) then Lochley has no such authority.

If the station is just rented, then the landlord retains sovereignty and Lochley can act as she does while the tenants act as they do.

What if it was a military base recently given over to NATO by some new member country, but still staffed by that country's quota of NATO-devoted personnel out of tradition and to keep continuity?

NATO is merely the tenant of such bases, just as the US is just a tenant of bases in the UK, Germany, Italy, etc. The host maintains sovereignty, though the tenant exercises operational control.

FYI that's a loose analogy only and I don't know if it makes sense in the real world, but it does in my head and in my feeling of the B5 set-up.

Its a good analogy, IMO.

[grumbler]

The dialogue from "Sleeping in Light":

Thanks, JoeD. That makes my point more clear. B5 was not returned back over to Earth, it was just "turned back over to Earth control." Why would Earth take it if they didn't have to? In fact, why would Earth agree to risk the lives of its servicepeople defending a station that didn't belong to them? The rental idea makes more sense in every way. Earth has to command, man, maintain, and defend the station, and they have to take it back and dispose of it when the lease is up. Warships leased to the Indian Navy (K-43/INS Chakra, for instance) were returned to Russia for disposal, while those sold (INS Vela, for instance) were scrapped by India.

[grumbler]

Pardon the threadjack, but the notion that the station was redundant, and nobody came here doesn't jive with it being a menace to navigation.

And the solution being to blow it up and spread 5 million tons of metal all over the place isn't a menace to navigation?

I think a better solution would've been to put some boosters on it and fire it into the sun ala Kosh's ship after Kosh died.

Three items:
(1) The station had to blow up rather than plunge into the sun, because we had seen it blow up in prophecy.
(2) It was a lot cheaper to just blow it up in place, and have the pieces burn up in the atmosphere. Boosters would have cost money to fabricate and transport to the site.
(3) It made for better TV to blow it up dramatically.