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  • #31
    My too sense

    My take:

    Because season five wasn't supposed to happen until TNT picked it up(about 2 weeks before they finished filming season 4, I believe. I'm probably way off), Most of the writing for S5 and the last three episodes for S4 were a little off. Go back and watch the episodes leading up to "Intersections in Real Time,"And then watch the three episodes aftwerwards. I actually stopped watching the show after the first ep of S5 didn't seem to improve that much(On a side note, I just picked up S5 on dvd and watched all of it. Wish I hadn't stopped; once it found it's footing it got much, much better). My point is that if the Teep storyline felt off, that was probably one of the big reasons.

    Byron as he was wasn't a problem for me. Yes, he was haughty, but come on, he was british. The whole point was that even though he had an ego and considered himself their leader, in the end most of his "follwers" betrayed what he wanted(peace, waiting for a planet of their own) by leaving when he wanted to stay in brown sector.

    My big problm with the teep colony's hair was they all looked like guys from hair metal bands. I kept expecting Byron to burst into "Pour Some Sugar on Me."

    As for the Teep planet I found myself wondering the whole time why they did the stupidest thing possible. "We want a planet so instead of going before the IA and asking politely, we'll do the one thing guarenteed to piss of EVERYBODY." On a side note, why didn't Sheridan ever considering asking Drall if they could use Epsilon. It seemed the plainest thing in the world, but what do I know?

    And if they do a movie, it has to include the David Sheridan plot. My guess would be that the Teep war and the keeper on David coincide, but maybe I'm wrong. If it is about the Teep war, my guess is going to be a three-way battle with the Psi-corp vs. Lita's group vs. Mundanes. I can just see John Sheridan running to help Earth out just as he recieves the message that his son has been taking by the Centauri, and having to choose which battle he goes to face, thus explaining his pressence on Centauri Prime and Delenn saying "David is fine."

    Just my take on the whole thing

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    • #32
      During Season 4 the Centauri teeps lost.

      When did this happen specifically. I don't remember.

      Comment


      • #33
        Somewhere there may be a comment of JMS about the Centauri and Minbari telepaths... can't find the former, but about the Minbari:
        http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-8866 (1994)
        From cradle to grave, the Minbari are taught that there is no greater goal, no nobler thing than to serve. They are raised to be totally self-sacrificing. The only exception is when someone in the religious caste believes he or she has received a calling, which if sincerely felt cannot be contravened (since usually this too involves serving). So for a Minbari telepath, this is their means by which they may serve, and they are given great respect. It never even occurs to them to do otherwise.
        How the Centauri are "controlled" I'm not sure, their names are on a list, but they may not be under as many restrictions as human teeps under the Psi Corps. Remember "Passing through Gethsemane" where a Centauri teep implanted the images in Brother Edward's mind.

        Figaro:
        It's completely impossible that the Centauri Prime abduction of David Sheridan through the keeper forms part of the same story as the Telepath War.

        David's keeper is given to him in his 16th Birthday... at the end of Season 5 (2262) he is in Delenn's womb, so that would happen on 2278-79.

        By the events on Crusade (starting on 2267) the Telepath War had passed... about two years before.

        You can check dates in the following site if you don't remember them:
        http://www.chronology.org/b-five/

        Is not official but at least is close to correct.

        I agree with you that a Telepath War would be a three way battle, maybe even four way if there is a radical faction of "mundanes" to contrast with Lyta's group.
        Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
        James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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        • #34
          well this telepaths vs. mundanes struggle seems pretty similar to me. and frankly, it is surprising that a similar battle has not taken place amongst the Centauri or Minbari who also have telepaths amongst them.
          In "Phoenix Rising," Bester is talking to Captain Lochley (after being called in to deal with the telepath problem) and says:

          "Our job is to protect normals from rogue telepaths. Perhaps now you'll understand why we're necessary. Every race to develop telepaths has had to find some way to control them: through laws, religion, drugs, or extermination. We may not be pretty....but we're a hell of a lot better than the alternatives."

          The implication being that the other races are indeed controlling their telepaths, albeit through more seemingly subtle methods. We know that Minbari telepaths think of it as a privilege to live a life of service, and all of their needs are provided for by Minbari society. There's probably some religious indoctrination there as well, with Valen making some pronouncement about how the telepaths are to use their gifts. With the Centauri, we know that at least some of their telepaths are used in the royal court. And the others are subject to less stringent rules than Human telepaths, so it's probably fairly easy for them to make a good buck in a society such as that one, rife with political intrigue and backstabbing. Perhaps the promise of such an easy life (good money, life in the royal court) is enough to keep their issues in check.

          One thing I'm not sure of is how long Earth has had telepaths as compared to the other races. We know that telepaths have been documented on Earth for a little over a hundred years, but how long have the Centauri had them? The Minbari? We know that the Narns had them a _thousand_ years ago, so maybe the problems with Human telepaths and the Psi Corp are due to us still being kind of new in the telepathy game.

          Aisling

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
            "Give us our own world."

            Oh sure, there ya go. Here is a whole planet, By. Anything else? How about a moon or two to go with it? For extra, we'll throw in an atmosphere. Wait...extra...you're not paying...heck, the air is free.

            Shaw, right.
            Actually, we saw in "Patterns of the Soul" that another group of "homo superiors" of a sort found rather trivially such a planet, and colonized it on the cheap.

            However, as someone pointed out on B5TV.com when I noted this, a teep homeworld would require much more than what the biologically altered humans needed in "Patterns of the Soul" - they needed protection from the other humans. Without some sort of patrol, some future Edgars would just hire some unemployed planet-busters and "make sure" that the teeps wouldn't threaten the mundanes.

            The planet wasn't the problem - the safety of the teeps once concentrated was, IMO. This is something Sheridan would think of.
            I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by AislingGrey
              One thing I'm not sure of is how long Earth has had telepaths as compared to the other races. We know that telepaths have been documented on Earth for a little over a hundred years, but how long have the Centauri had them? The Minbari? We know that the Narns had them a _thousand_ years ago, so maybe the problems with Human telepaths and the Psi Corp are due to us still being kind of new in the telepathy game.
              A good point. Given that one of the charges against the Vorlons by Justin and co is that the Vorlons changed humans genetically to create telepaths, did they do the same for the Minbari and Narn? One could undersyand that for the Minbari, as they were clearly going to be a player in the next Great War. Did the Vorlons also expect the Narn to be "players" in that war, and were they (and then "retrogressed" as a result of the earlier stages of that war)? If they were fighting the Shadows as an advanced race in the war 1,000 years ago, why didn't their allies, the Vorlons and Minbari specifically, help them regain their advanced status?

              It is interesting that G'Qan knew about Z'Ha'Dum 1,000 years prior to the B5 story. Maybe he found out about it from the "mindwalkers" but it is also posible that Narn had spacefaring technology themselves.

              I have lots of questions about the "last war," now that I think about it.
              I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

              Comment


              • #37
                ...but even though i would consider telepaths to be "superior", that does not necessarily give them the upper hand because they are inferior when it comes to numbers by a pretty large margin...
                Right. And how many men did the average consquistador have with him in the jungles of South and Central America. How many men did the British East India Company have in the subcontinent at any given time? And all they had was a little technological and organizational ability. They didn't have the ability to read their opponents' minds, to plant false images, parnoid ideas and other useful things in their minds, confuse them so that they fired on their own people instead of the enemy... Starting to get the picture? If you have powerful telepaths acting without restriction you don't need numbers.

                ...it also stands to reason that the Alliance would come to the aid of the mundanes if the telepaths ever made a bid to take over Earth.
                The Alliance is specifically forbidden to interfere in the internal affairs of member states. If the Teeps won political power over the normals "fair and square" - at least to all appearances - it is really hard to see what the Alliance could do about it. Besides the teeps wouldn't need to start up concentration camps with gas chambers. Lots of mundanes could suddenly start committing suicide. A teep-engineered spiritiual revival could lead millions of others to join religious orders that pactice chastity. Or a mutated form of the Edgars virus could 'escape' - one that killed mundanes and spared teeps. Oh, the irony. Oh, the difficulty of proving that the story isn't true.

                Actually, I see two possibilities, neither of them near-term: One, through biotechnology all Humans become telepaths. The ability can simply be given to anyone who happens to be born without it, and gradually nobody is born without it, thanks to genetic engineering. Or, the opposite. It turns out the the teep gene is not self-sustaining or automatic (which is why "mundane" parents give birth to teeps, and teeps sometimes give birth to mundanes) - by nature it is "switched off" and only periodic Vorlon intervention keeeps it going. So the trait eventually dies out altogether in Humans, just as it did in Narns and as it may already be among the Centauri and Minbari. (Which is why telepaths are seen as more of a novelty than a threat in those societies. Both their absolute and relative numbers are so small they don't scare "normals")

                Regards,

                Joe
                Joseph DeMartino
                Sigh Corps
                Pat Tallman Division

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                • #38
                  Did the Vorlons also expect the Narn to be "players" in that war, and were they (and then "retrogressed" as a result of the earlier stages of that war)? If they were fighting the Shadows as an advanced race in the war 1,000 years ago, why didn't their allies, the Vorlons and Minbari specifically, help them regain their advanced status?
                  The Narn were not a spacefaring people 1,000 years ago. The Shadows merely used their world as a planetary base. The (native?) telepaths (who may have been of Vorlon origin) found their weakness and fought them on the ground much as the Centauri did.

                  The Vorlons "unleashed" Human Telepath about 100 years before B5 begins, but they began their experiments along those lines perhaps a million years before that. Vorlons are nothing if not patient. In the midst of the Teep War of 226/65 (which is not a general Teep vs. Mundane war, as is made pretty clear from Crusade) Lyta finds a lost planet where the Vorlons conducted some of their experiments, where a pre-sentient hominid species still thrives. (Short story, "The Nautilus Coil" by J. Gregory Keyes) So yes, it does seem that the Vorlons probably also created the Narn and Centauri, and perphas Minbari telepaths. (JMS has made contradictory statements on the subject. Early on he indicated that the Vorlons created some telepaths, but that other were evolved naturally. But "Secrets of the Souls" seems to show Narn and Centauri embryos in jars, as well as other species, and some of JMS statements during and after S5 seem to imply that the Vorlons created telepathy everywhere.)

                  Regards,

                  Joe
                  Joseph DeMartino
                  Sigh Corps
                  Pat Tallman Division

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
                    Or a mutated form of the Edgars virus could 'escape' - one that killed mundanes and spared teeps.
                    You raise an interesting point and one I've been wondering about for quite a while. When Bester came to ask Sheridan if his lover had been among the teeps used in the assault on Earthforce, Sheridan mentioned the virus. It seemed to me that Bester looked more than slightly disgruntled, perhaps as though the Corps *hadn't* gotten the vials? Unfortunately, there's no 'stage directions' in the script to give me a clue (hrmph! <g>)

                    What do you all think?
                    Jan
                    "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
                      {snip}(JMS has made contradictory statements on the subject. Early on he indicated that the Vorlons created some telepaths, but that other were evolved naturally. But "Secrets of the Souls" seems to show Narn and Centauri embryos in jars, as well as other species, and some of JMS statements during and after S5 seem to imply that the Vorlons created telepathy everywhere.)
                      I suspect that the naturally occurring telepaths were the Vorlons and the "mice" the Shadows used as booby traps in book #7 ôThe Shadow Withinö.

                      At least one of the other First One races were super telekinetics.
                      Andrew Swallow

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
                        {snip}Actually, I see two possibilities, neither of them near-term: One, through biotechnology all Humans become telepaths. The ability can simply be given to anyone who happens to be born without it, and gradually nobody is born without it, thanks to genetic engineering.
                        There is one other way - selective breeding. Psi Corps has already started and restarts after the Teep War.

                        teep + teep = teep

                        mundane + mundane = mundane

                        full teep + mundane =
                        1/4 of children full teep
                        1/4 mundane
                        1/2 partial teep

                        partial teep + partial teep = complex results, including full teeps

                        full teep + partial teep = a mixture of full and partial teep

                        Assuming that 95% of teeps breed with teeps they will produce a pure breed telepathic group. If they have more than 2 children the size of this group will increase. Psi Corps and son of Psi Corps are controlling this.

                        If 5% of teeps breed out the telepathic genes will spread into the host population. To convert 99% of the human population will take between 1500 and 2500 years. The rules will cause the new telepaths and partial telepaths to be absorbed into the telepathic group.

                        If Ivanova's mother is a valid example then the 5% of teeps that are breeding out are on the sleeper drug. This makes the sleeper drug program a 2000 year conspiracy to convert the entire human race into telepaths.
                        Andrew Swallow

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Jan
                          You raise an interesting point and one I've been wondering about for quite a while. When Bester came to ask Sheridan if his lover had been among the teeps used in the assault on Earthforce, Sheridan mentioned the virus. It seemed to me that Bester looked more than slightly disgruntled, perhaps as though the Corps *hadn't* gotten the vials? Unfortunately, there's no 'stage directions' in the script to give me a clue (hrmph! <g>)

                          What do you all think?
                          Jan
                          Possibly, the alternative is that Bester believed that he had inserted blocks into Garibaldi's mind, which prevent any mundane from finding out about the virus. Bester had not expected Lyta to use super psi to save Garibaldi's life by breaking the blocks. The question therefore caught him off guard and he would have to think how much of an answer to give.
                          Andrew Swallow

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
                            Right. And how many men did the average consquistador have with him in the jungles of South and Central America. How many men did the British East India Company have in the subcontinent at any given time? And all they had was a little technological and organizational ability. They didn't have the ability to read their opponents' minds, to plant false images, parnoid ideas and other useful things in their minds, confuse them so that they fired on their own people instead of the enemy... Starting to get the picture? If you have powerful telepaths acting without restriction you don't need numbers.
                            Joe,

                            i am forced to point out that not all telepaths are necessarily Lyta or Bester strength. they are easily in the minority. and history is full of examples of numbers defeating superior technology and organization.

                            the Russians used conscripts and such basically as cannon fodder and overwhelmed the Germans primarily on numbers. sure for a short time they had a slight advantage in armor, but the Germans soon caught up and were only beaten because they could not compete on an industrial basis. so it was numbers.

                            the US produced vastly inferior armor during WW II but was able to compete on the basis of numbers quite well. sure the heavy German tanks could wipe out Shermans easily. but once it became 10 Shermans to 1 Tiger or Panther the Wehrmacht was beaten despite their technological edge.

                            and lastly, the Chinese used superior numbers of troops to overrun the US lines during the Korean War and it was all about numbers yet again.

                            i bring up these examples because they more closely relate to the subject than the conquistadors and the Aztecs. the two sides are not that far apart.

                            in a teeps vs. mundanes battle, both sides would be privy to the same technology and intelligence level. and it is blatantly obvious that teeps are no more intelligent than normals. and the other factor would be that defenses against teeps would probably be developed to take away some of the advantages they would have anyways. that is the nature of war.

                            i am not discounting what you say. i am just saying that unless the teeps have about a hundred thousand "Lytas" around, it would probably not be any cakewalk for homo superior.
                            Keffer

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                            • #44
                              But doesn't most of this speculation arise from the hypothesis that the Teeps, if they were given their own planet, would eventually plan to conquer earth? This remain speculative. We can IMPLY what may happen, but the fact remains that JMS could easily move the story in any direction he chooses. If you read The Demolished Man, you see that Teeps are not vilified, they are valuable members of society. A good example of how the pen is mightier than the sword (the author has all the power).

                              If the Teeps were given their own world, there are plenty of other threads that could be explored other than conquering earth, such as the treatment of citizens on Teepworld that were born mundane. What would become of these people? Lots of opportunity for many stories - once again, all up to the author.

                              In relation to JMS evolving the arcs, I see Matheson on Crusade as an example of the Teep's role in society after the fact. I haven't seen Crusade in some years now (and I'm sure to be rebuffed if wrong), but I don't seem to remember a continual, excessive amount of prejudice aimed at the character, certainly not the kind of ire we saw from the command staff on B5. In fact, Gideon seemed to appreciate Matheson's talents, which really seems significant considering the fact that Gideon definitely had secrets. He seemed more concerned with Galen uncovering his secrets than Matheson. And Matheson himself did not display the coniving underhandedness that was prevalent in the typical PsiCop, he seemed more of a noble character (at least in the episodes we were given).

                              Man I need to re-watch Crusade. Getting gigged twice in a row by Joseph DeMartino can be a painful experience.
                              "The cat is not evil for killing the rat, nor is the rat evil for stealing the grain. Each acts according to its nature." Master Po - Kung Fu:TOS

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                              • #45
                                But doesn't most of this speculation arise from the hypothesis that the Teeps, if they were given their own planet, would eventually plan to conquer earth? This remain speculative. We can IMPLY what may happen, but the fact remains that JMS could easily move the story in any direction he chooses.
                                I don't think anyone is really speculating that it could happen in B5. Also, I don't think JMS would ever move the story in that direction.
                                But what might happen very easily is that those affraid of telepaths and those that hate them would think of the possibility or be willing to believe any one that would suggest it.
                                Is not that they would do it: is that many will be affraid they might.

                                Or in other words: we're speculating about what the common people and teep enemies in the B5 Universe might speculate about Telepaths having their own world.
                                Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                                James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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