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  • iamsheridan
    replied
    Originally posted by WorkerCaste
    Finding a planet for the Teeps would mean someone giving up one they had claim to, or a long search for a new planet followed by sending the equivilent of an Explorer class ship out to build the new gate.
    But they wouldn't WANT a jumpgate, would they? They only wanted to live in peace and quiet.

    If they wanted to go somewhere, they could use the Explorer class to go there...

    /IamS

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  • NotKosh
    replied
    Originally posted by Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt

    In relation to JMS evolving the arcs, I see Matheson on Crusade as an example of the Teep's role in society after the fact. I haven't seen Crusade in some years now (and I'm sure to be rebuffed if wrong), but I don't seem to remember a continual, excessive amount of prejudice aimed at the character, certainly not the kind of ire we saw from the command staff on B5. In fact, Gideon seemed to appreciate Matheson's talents, which really seems significant considering the fact that Gideon definitely had secrets. He seemed more concerned with Galen uncovering his secrets than Matheson. And Matheson himself did not display the coniving underhandedness that was prevalent in the typical PsiCop, he seemed more of a noble character (at least in the episodes we were given).
    In the time of Crusade, teeps are periodically checked. There was an episode (Well of Souls/Forever?), where a teep scanner comes on board, to scan Matheson, to make sure he hasn't violated teep regulations with unauthorized scans. Those regulations/restrictions/oversight were one of the fallouts of the teep war.

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  • WorkerCaste
    replied
    Just one other thought about a Teep homeworld... while there are undoubtedly a wealth of suitable plantes in the universe at large, how accesible are they? Jump gates seem to be a big thing - expensive and time consuming to build. The desirable planets near existing jump gates are probably pretty well spoken for. Finding a planet for the Teeps would mean someone giving up one they had claim to, or a long search for a new planet followed by sending the equivilent of an Explorer class ship out to build the new gate. Byron seemed to be asking for the first option - someone should give one up - since he sounded like he wanted it to happen fairly quickly.

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  • Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt
    replied
    My post was responding to the question, basically, of "why wasn't Sheridan more sympathetic to the Teep Homeworld idea?" My answer was that he could forsee a lot of problems beyond the possibly trivial one of finding a planet in "known space."
    After re-reading this thread I see that I must be hung up in the old Star Trek adage "You don't have to do this, we can take your problem to the Federation" So it's now a proven fact that years of repeated viewings can alter one's brain chemistry.

    Still the Matheson character in Crusade does show that JMS was pushing the Teep arcs in new directions, slowly but surely. I'm standing firm on the fact that we can all discuss what we THINK may happen, but in the end the author decides what will or will not happen in his/her story. And I'm not saying this to back up MY speculations. I could be completely backwards, upside-down, skewed. So no predictions here. I'll enjoy WHATEVER we end up getting (when we actually end up GETTING it).

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  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
    Or in other words: we're speculating about what the common people and teep enemies in the B5 Universe might speculate about Telepaths having their own world.
    Exactly. My post was responding to the question, basically, of "why wasn't Sheridan more sympathetic to the Teep Homeworld idea?" My answer was that he could forsee a lot of problems beyond the possibly trivial one of finding a planet in "known space."

    Remember how small the offplanet populations were for most of these races. Of the major races only the Centauri, from reading betwen the lines, had a substantial portion of their population off-world. So, it would seem that emmigration wasn't all that popular, and since the "Cyborgs" in PotS seemed to have no problems finding an unoccupied planet, there should be another reason, and I provided a possibility.

    Now, if Lyta were to find some new planet, whose location might be kept secret by the telepaths themselves, Sheridan might react differently. But that is speculation far beyond what the series supports.

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  • Capt.Montoya
    replied
    But doesn't most of this speculation arise from the hypothesis that the Teeps, if they were given their own planet, would eventually plan to conquer earth? This remain speculative. We can IMPLY what may happen, but the fact remains that JMS could easily move the story in any direction he chooses.
    I don't think anyone is really speculating that it could happen in B5. Also, I don't think JMS would ever move the story in that direction.
    But what might happen very easily is that those affraid of telepaths and those that hate them would think of the possibility or be willing to believe any one that would suggest it.
    Is not that they would do it: is that many will be affraid they might.

    Or in other words: we're speculating about what the common people and teep enemies in the B5 Universe might speculate about Telepaths having their own world.

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  • Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt
    replied
    But doesn't most of this speculation arise from the hypothesis that the Teeps, if they were given their own planet, would eventually plan to conquer earth? This remain speculative. We can IMPLY what may happen, but the fact remains that JMS could easily move the story in any direction he chooses. If you read The Demolished Man, you see that Teeps are not vilified, they are valuable members of society. A good example of how the pen is mightier than the sword (the author has all the power).

    If the Teeps were given their own world, there are plenty of other threads that could be explored other than conquering earth, such as the treatment of citizens on Teepworld that were born mundane. What would become of these people? Lots of opportunity for many stories - once again, all up to the author.

    In relation to JMS evolving the arcs, I see Matheson on Crusade as an example of the Teep's role in society after the fact. I haven't seen Crusade in some years now (and I'm sure to be rebuffed if wrong), but I don't seem to remember a continual, excessive amount of prejudice aimed at the character, certainly not the kind of ire we saw from the command staff on B5. In fact, Gideon seemed to appreciate Matheson's talents, which really seems significant considering the fact that Gideon definitely had secrets. He seemed more concerned with Galen uncovering his secrets than Matheson. And Matheson himself did not display the coniving underhandedness that was prevalent in the typical PsiCop, he seemed more of a noble character (at least in the episodes we were given).

    Man I need to re-watch Crusade. Getting gigged twice in a row by Joseph DeMartino can be a painful experience.

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  • Lieutenant Keffer
    replied
    Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
    Right. And how many men did the average consquistador have with him in the jungles of South and Central America. How many men did the British East India Company have in the subcontinent at any given time? And all they had was a little technological and organizational ability. They didn't have the ability to read their opponents' minds, to plant false images, parnoid ideas and other useful things in their minds, confuse them so that they fired on their own people instead of the enemy... Starting to get the picture? If you have powerful telepaths acting without restriction you don't need numbers.
    Joe,

    i am forced to point out that not all telepaths are necessarily Lyta or Bester strength. they are easily in the minority. and history is full of examples of numbers defeating superior technology and organization.

    the Russians used conscripts and such basically as cannon fodder and overwhelmed the Germans primarily on numbers. sure for a short time they had a slight advantage in armor, but the Germans soon caught up and were only beaten because they could not compete on an industrial basis. so it was numbers.

    the US produced vastly inferior armor during WW II but was able to compete on the basis of numbers quite well. sure the heavy German tanks could wipe out Shermans easily. but once it became 10 Shermans to 1 Tiger or Panther the Wehrmacht was beaten despite their technological edge.

    and lastly, the Chinese used superior numbers of troops to overrun the US lines during the Korean War and it was all about numbers yet again.

    i bring up these examples because they more closely relate to the subject than the conquistadors and the Aztecs. the two sides are not that far apart.

    in a teeps vs. mundanes battle, both sides would be privy to the same technology and intelligence level. and it is blatantly obvious that teeps are no more intelligent than normals. and the other factor would be that defenses against teeps would probably be developed to take away some of the advantages they would have anyways. that is the nature of war.

    i am not discounting what you say. i am just saying that unless the teeps have about a hundred thousand "Lytas" around, it would probably not be any cakewalk for homo superior.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrew_Swallow
    replied
    Originally posted by Jan
    You raise an interesting point and one I've been wondering about for quite a while. When Bester came to ask Sheridan if his lover had been among the teeps used in the assault on Earthforce, Sheridan mentioned the virus. It seemed to me that Bester looked more than slightly disgruntled, perhaps as though the Corps *hadn't* gotten the vials? Unfortunately, there's no 'stage directions' in the script to give me a clue (hrmph! <g>)

    What do you all think?
    Jan
    Possibly, the alternative is that Bester believed that he had inserted blocks into Garibaldi's mind, which prevent any mundane from finding out about the virus. Bester had not expected Lyta to use super psi to save Garibaldi's life by breaking the blocks. The question therefore caught him off guard and he would have to think how much of an answer to give.

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  • Andrew_Swallow
    replied
    Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
    {snip}Actually, I see two possibilities, neither of them near-term: One, through biotechnology all Humans become telepaths. The ability can simply be given to anyone who happens to be born without it, and gradually nobody is born without it, thanks to genetic engineering.
    There is one other way - selective breeding. Psi Corps has already started and restarts after the Teep War.

    teep + teep = teep

    mundane + mundane = mundane

    full teep + mundane =
    1/4 of children full teep
    1/4 mundane
    1/2 partial teep

    partial teep + partial teep = complex results, including full teeps

    full teep + partial teep = a mixture of full and partial teep

    Assuming that 95% of teeps breed with teeps they will produce a pure breed telepathic group. If they have more than 2 children the size of this group will increase. Psi Corps and son of Psi Corps are controlling this.

    If 5% of teeps breed out the telepathic genes will spread into the host population. To convert 99% of the human population will take between 1500 and 2500 years. The rules will cause the new telepaths and partial telepaths to be absorbed into the telepathic group.

    If Ivanova's mother is a valid example then the 5% of teeps that are breeding out are on the sleeper drug. This makes the sleeper drug program a 2000 year conspiracy to convert the entire human race into telepaths.

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  • Andrew_Swallow
    replied
    Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
    {snip}(JMS has made contradictory statements on the subject. Early on he indicated that the Vorlons created some telepaths, but that other were evolved naturally. But "Secrets of the Souls" seems to show Narn and Centauri embryos in jars, as well as other species, and some of JMS statements during and after S5 seem to imply that the Vorlons created telepathy everywhere.)
    I suspect that the naturally occurring telepaths were the Vorlons and the "mice" the Shadows used as booby traps in book #7 ôThe Shadow Withinö.

    At least one of the other First One races were super telekinetics.

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  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
    Or a mutated form of the Edgars virus could 'escape' - one that killed mundanes and spared teeps.
    You raise an interesting point and one I've been wondering about for quite a while. When Bester came to ask Sheridan if his lover had been among the teeps used in the assault on Earthforce, Sheridan mentioned the virus. It seemed to me that Bester looked more than slightly disgruntled, perhaps as though the Corps *hadn't* gotten the vials? Unfortunately, there's no 'stage directions' in the script to give me a clue (hrmph! <g>)

    What do you all think?
    Jan

    Leave a comment:


  • Joseph DeMartino
    replied
    Did the Vorlons also expect the Narn to be "players" in that war, and were they (and then "retrogressed" as a result of the earlier stages of that war)? If they were fighting the Shadows as an advanced race in the war 1,000 years ago, why didn't their allies, the Vorlons and Minbari specifically, help them regain their advanced status?
    The Narn were not a spacefaring people 1,000 years ago. The Shadows merely used their world as a planetary base. The (native?) telepaths (who may have been of Vorlon origin) found their weakness and fought them on the ground much as the Centauri did.

    The Vorlons "unleashed" Human Telepath about 100 years before B5 begins, but they began their experiments along those lines perhaps a million years before that. Vorlons are nothing if not patient. In the midst of the Teep War of 226/65 (which is not a general Teep vs. Mundane war, as is made pretty clear from Crusade) Lyta finds a lost planet where the Vorlons conducted some of their experiments, where a pre-sentient hominid species still thrives. (Short story, "The Nautilus Coil" by J. Gregory Keyes) So yes, it does seem that the Vorlons probably also created the Narn and Centauri, and perphas Minbari telepaths. (JMS has made contradictory statements on the subject. Early on he indicated that the Vorlons created some telepaths, but that other were evolved naturally. But "Secrets of the Souls" seems to show Narn and Centauri embryos in jars, as well as other species, and some of JMS statements during and after S5 seem to imply that the Vorlons created telepathy everywhere.)

    Regards,

    Joe

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  • Joseph DeMartino
    replied
    ...but even though i would consider telepaths to be "superior", that does not necessarily give them the upper hand because they are inferior when it comes to numbers by a pretty large margin...
    Right. And how many men did the average consquistador have with him in the jungles of South and Central America. How many men did the British East India Company have in the subcontinent at any given time? And all they had was a little technological and organizational ability. They didn't have the ability to read their opponents' minds, to plant false images, parnoid ideas and other useful things in their minds, confuse them so that they fired on their own people instead of the enemy... Starting to get the picture? If you have powerful telepaths acting without restriction you don't need numbers.

    ...it also stands to reason that the Alliance would come to the aid of the mundanes if the telepaths ever made a bid to take over Earth.
    The Alliance is specifically forbidden to interfere in the internal affairs of member states. If the Teeps won political power over the normals "fair and square" - at least to all appearances - it is really hard to see what the Alliance could do about it. Besides the teeps wouldn't need to start up concentration camps with gas chambers. Lots of mundanes could suddenly start committing suicide. A teep-engineered spiritiual revival could lead millions of others to join religious orders that pactice chastity. Or a mutated form of the Edgars virus could 'escape' - one that killed mundanes and spared teeps. Oh, the irony. Oh, the difficulty of proving that the story isn't true.

    Actually, I see two possibilities, neither of them near-term: One, through biotechnology all Humans become telepaths. The ability can simply be given to anyone who happens to be born without it, and gradually nobody is born without it, thanks to genetic engineering. Or, the opposite. It turns out the the teep gene is not self-sustaining or automatic (which is why "mundane" parents give birth to teeps, and teeps sometimes give birth to mundanes) - by nature it is "switched off" and only periodic Vorlon intervention keeeps it going. So the trait eventually dies out altogether in Humans, just as it did in Narns and as it may already be among the Centauri and Minbari. (Which is why telepaths are seen as more of a novelty than a threat in those societies. Both their absolute and relative numbers are so small they don't scare "normals")

    Regards,

    Joe

    Leave a comment:


  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by AislingGrey
    One thing I'm not sure of is how long Earth has had telepaths as compared to the other races. We know that telepaths have been documented on Earth for a little over a hundred years, but how long have the Centauri had them? The Minbari? We know that the Narns had them a _thousand_ years ago, so maybe the problems with Human telepaths and the Psi Corp are due to us still being kind of new in the telepathy game.
    A good point. Given that one of the charges against the Vorlons by Justin and co is that the Vorlons changed humans genetically to create telepaths, did they do the same for the Minbari and Narn? One could undersyand that for the Minbari, as they were clearly going to be a player in the next Great War. Did the Vorlons also expect the Narn to be "players" in that war, and were they (and then "retrogressed" as a result of the earlier stages of that war)? If they were fighting the Shadows as an advanced race in the war 1,000 years ago, why didn't their allies, the Vorlons and Minbari specifically, help them regain their advanced status?

    It is interesting that G'Qan knew about Z'Ha'Dum 1,000 years prior to the B5 story. Maybe he found out about it from the "mindwalkers" but it is also posible that Narn had spacefaring technology themselves.

    I have lots of questions about the "last war," now that I think about it.

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