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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jonas View Post
    And reading the sentence to imply something else is, yes, biased. It's looking for something to complain about.
    Nicely said. That's much the impression I've gotten. It's all very well to go on a crusade but not every single little comment has to be debated.

    Jan
    "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

    Comment


    • #32
      The thing about the CGsociety is the implication û always a subjective thing (especially when quoted in isolation). Of course, he did writing on some animated shows early on in his career. But the context of the comment was with his understanding of what was and wasnÆt possible in creating the animations û COMPUTER animations at that. And it can . . . lets just say, be read as misleading especially in the context some of the other stuff kicking around the net.

      As for complaining about wiki being inaccurate. Your correct, itÆs all over the friggin place. But I highlighted than one because it has a few in the same place and must have been written by a fan.

      Thing is though. I donÆt know where it originated from because hereÆs a couple of examples how it can be repeated. In things that are not as obvious for errors as water is wet. (though it is a place most folk on the net end up reading at some point û including newbies)


      An article about Fiona AveryÆs release of the Crusade script

      J. Michael Straczynski, the Emmy-award winning creator of both "Babylon 5" and "Crusade", comments, "When Value Judgments was finished . . . . . . . . .. . . . . .
      An article about the 2005 comic expo

      The headline event is a first UK Comic Convention appearance by Amazing Spider-Man writer J. Michael Straczynski, also the Emmy award winning writer and producer of the TV series Babylon 5, Jeremiah and Crusade. Straczynski's other comics work includes Midnight Nation, Supreme Power and Rising Stars.
      A forum discussion about Ibooks releasing stuff

      Now, New York-based publishing house ibooks, inc. is pleased to announce that it has solidified plans with Hugo, Eisner and Emmy award-winning writer and producer J. Michael Straczynski to re-introduce his growing number of fans to some of his earlier works.
      You see, it doesnÆt just pop in Wikipedia. But of course nowhere near everyone or everything that is more ôofficialö in nature even comes close to implying jms won EmmyÆs but it is something that happens û and is not what B5Scrolls is all about highlighting or going on about. IÆve just added this bit into THIS conversation as it unambiguously shows how a misconception can be repeated, by both fans and folks writing articles.

      A more common though subtle one is the whole Emmy award winning series do-da. Technically the series itself didnÆt win an Emmy. Everett and crew did for the make up.

      Anyway, this is side tracking things. The site is not biased against jms. At least not intentionally, but like I said in the question to John Copeland near the start of this. I can see how it might look like jms bashing to some, especially those that buy into the ôGreat Makerö idea. Which of course John confirmed he knows exists.


      @ Jonas
      Ultimately responsible. Yes he is.

      But on a day to day decision making side of things John Copeland should more likely be attributed as the producer who made them. If you look at the interview on B5Scrolls youÆll see everyone mention his name (with no prompting from me ), and only occasionally Joe.

      John did discuss with Joe a lot of things sometimes in great detail, but he also did things (they all did) off their own back to create things beyond what was in the script. The creation of the Vorlon fleet at the end of the Pilot movie being a case in point. As John said, everyone was encouraged to bring creative ideas to the table. Yes Joe said yes to them, but thatÆs not the same as coming up with them in the first place is it. AND thatÆs the point of B5Scrolls to highlight some of those that did.

      I'm starting to repeat myself now here a bit. But you have to seperate Joe from the show (not the script) a bit in order to let the contributions of other people in.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Jan View Post
        Nicely said. That's much the impression I've gotten. It's all very well to go on a crusade but not every single little comment has to be debated.

        Jan
        And you see Jan that in a nutshell is whatÆs wrong with a small but active selection of the B5 fan community. I decide to put something together that highlights what others do. And you say that IÆm on a Crusade, bias and setting the contributors leading questions.

        If itÆs just going to continue in that vein I see no point in continuing this conversation. If you want to discuss whatÆs said rather than what you think my objectives in putting the site together is, then fine. But saying things like that, while claiming to be someone who doesnÆt take cheap shots is . . . . .well, it is what it is. And IÆm not going down to that level.

        Comment


        • #34
          As one of those that gave you a hard time for coding your site originally for MS Internet Exploiter only I now have to congratulate you for coding for all browsers.

          A job well done, it even displays nicely for Safari 3 on Mac OS X

          I have only found a few text displaying glitches. Especifically, in the Miscelaneous section, where the text is shown below the images (instead of on the side) the images appear above the first lines of text.
          This problem however I've found with other sites too, given that Safari is supposed to be standards compliant I don't think it's the browser's fault in the end (unless you consider sticking to standards too much a fault), but I don't think it's necessarily a problem in your coding.

          I find your sense of humor (to quote your description of the Uncyclopedia link) hit or miss. But anyway, it's clear to me that you didn't intend for all your words to be taken seriously.

          Congratulations, and thanks for creating a site that gives a different perspective on things.
          Also congratulations for creating what might well be the only new B5 site in many, many years!
          Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
          James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Triple F View Post
            And you see Jan that in a nutshell is whatÆs wrong with a small but active selection of the B5 fan community. I decide to put something together that highlights what others do. And you say that IÆm on a Crusade, bias and setting the contributors leading questions.
            A) You have an opinion. You're biased. I have an opinion. I'm biased. It's a simple fact.

            B) I said I got the impression that you tended to ask leading questions and admitted that I hadn't read the entire site. Take an honest look at the first two questions on page two of the Ron Thornton interview to see an example of why I got that impression.

            C) As for the crusade comment, what you've said is:

            Originally posted by Triple F View Post
            The 'problem' is in order to do that I have to yank jms (in the minds of some hardcore types) away from things they think he did.
            Originally posted by Triple F View Post
            Though your wrong, there is something that can be done about it. For my part itÆs called B5Scrolls. What you or anyone else does about it, including nothing at all except repeating the jms-centric nonsense, is up to them.
            That pretty much seems like you're clear on your intentions. Please note that it's you who's taking what I said negatively. It's not. Believe me, I've been on a few crusades myself so I understand the impulse whether I agree with yours or not.

            If itÆs just going to continue in that vein I see no point in continuing this conversation. If you want to discuss whatÆs said rather than what you think my objectives in putting the site together is, then fine. But saying things like that, while claiming to be someone who doesnÆt take cheap shots is . . . . .well, it is what it is. And IÆm not going down to that level.
            If we disagree, we disagree but my feeling is that you're taking things I'm saying much too personally and far more negatively that I actually mean.

            Jan
            "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

            Comment


            • #36
              Fair enough. As I implied, when you read the whole thing youÆll see that thereÆs plenty of compliments flying around in jmsÆs direction û as they should. The interview style with Ron is not like that with everyone û and thatÆs my fault û Not His (he was my first after all, and as we all know you usually cockup your first of anything


              Any road. As far as content goes.

              One of the things I found really interesting was what Chris Wren had to say about the Legend Of The Rangers and the development of that bloody gun pod idea. Also the possibility that the Liandra had a PERSONALITY!!!!!

              What the hell did Joe have in the back of his mind with that one. Could also be the reason why the ship appeared to be haunted when in fact it was the ship trying to communicate with them, and would become apparent as the show (if picked up) progressed.

              Also what Eric Chavin had to say about those Translights being basically hi-res scans of Mattes he produced. Clever, but did look a bit bad at times û I always did wonder about what was going on there.

              Though som sod is going to point to a jms quote on these. lol. I can just feel it in my water


              @ Cap. Montoya
              The humour is all over the place, IÆve actually seen people quote (from the last version) stuff that I thought was so lame it should be shot, yet they thought it was hilarious. ItÆs got flaws all over the place, Apart from what the contributors say NOTHING on there is meant to be taken seriously including my little ûopinionated û rant in the links section. IÆll probably smooth out a couple of things. One biggy (for me) is to put together a model for the IA-1 from Lost Tails.

              Also thanks for letting me know it works (more or less) in Safari û I was curious about that û and see I did listen to you about the browser compatibility thing. ThereÆs some ridiculously silly syntax errors between the interpreters of the various browsers but the biggest problem was trying to get the Flash files to work the way I wanted - that and the odd bug each browser has (yes they all have them). The final compromise appears to be acceptable though.

              Comment


              • #37
                BTW, I noticed that you asked who came up with the ship class and name for the Victory and Excalibur. In a semi-outline that JMS wrote for 'A Call to Arms' (at that point named 'Eve of Destruction') dsated January 7, 1998, he describes:

                ...the first two prototypes of a new kind of warship. Much bigger than the White Stars used previously by the Alliance, this new warship is in the Destroyer category...a much bigger ship. The two prototypes represent an extremely sophisticated hybrid of Earth and Minbari technology, the best of the best.
                In the Writer's Draft of the script (2/25/98) he writes:

                PANNING OFF the ship and PUSHING INTO the distance, where we see the seletal outline of a huge construction dock, and alongside it, two finished ships. Combinations of Minbari and Human and even a touch of Vorlon technologies. They are identical in every way except name: one is the Excalibur and the other is the Victory.
                There may be instances where the scripts might help answer some of your questions. I don't mind looking things up if that's the case.

                Jan
                "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                Comment


                • #38
                  I think the reason why I asked that (though IÆm not 100% sure) was because someone somewhere once asked me about ship names (ItÆs the reason why I make a half hearted attempt at mentioning the origins of the names in this version of the ship section). I know Tim Earls occasionally came up with names for ships û though usually they didnÆt make it into the show û the Olympus and SheridanÆs flight (blue star) comes to mind. I think that most of those (probably all) that were named probably did come from Joe though.

                  Like the Iksha Battlesphere, which was initially going to be a Borg sphere type thing (my comparison) and ironically (given the number of nods Ron did) he suggested changing it because it would have looked a bit like a miniature version of the death moon thingy in Star Wars.

                  One thing that did knock me for six (and I understand it was mentioned in a script book somewhere-swa it being mentioned in passing on a thread somewhere) was the shadows being called shadow-men at one point and looking much more humanoid. I really didnÆt see that one coming.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Triple F View Post
                    One thing that did knock me for six (and I understand it was mentioned in a script book somewhere-swa it being mentioned in passing on a thread somewhere) was the shadows being called shadow-men at one point and looking much more humanoid. I really didnÆt see that one coming.
                    Yes, in the script book intro for "Signs and Portents" JMS wrote:
                    You will also notice that in the script I refer to this as a shadowman
                    vessel. During the first season, I was still trying to decide whether to call this
                    new race The Shadowmen or simply The Shadows. I finally opted for the latter, because shadowmen sounded a bit too campy, and too much like the cybermen of Dr. Who fame.
                    The first description of them I can find is in "Chrysalis" (filmed as #112 but shown as #122):
                    Then, slowly, the lights dim, and several MOVING
                    SHADOWS approach. They're black, indistinct, almost like
                    darkness given form, but you can SEE the walls behind them.
                    These are the Shadowmen. They move toward Morden, grouping in
                    front of him. They make a TONE, a strange, half-electronic,
                    half-insectoid SOUND.
                    Jan
                    "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Triple F View Post
                      attention seeking and looking for kudos
                      For some reason when I read this, I can't help but think about Kosh and Ulkesh. What was it Kosh said? Right ... "The truth points to itself."

                      No connection, I'm sure. Just coincidence.
                      "Jan Schroeder is insane" - J. Michael Straczynski, March 2008

                      The Station: A Babylon 5 Podcast

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by OmahaStar View Post
                        For some reason when I read this, I can't help but think about Kosh and Ulkesh. What was it Kosh said? Right ... "The truth points to itself."
                        I think that phrase was said first by Kudos Naranek, a cousin of Kosh.
                        Now if I could only find the JMS post where he talks about Kudos...
                        Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                        James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Triple F, thanks for putting together your site. There is a lot of interesting stuff there, and I appreciate your desire to give a bit of the spotlight to the guys behind the technical side of things.

                          I definitely get the feeling, though, that you are seeking controversy, even where it doesn't exist. There is no contradiction between JMS's comment that ôthere's no intention to be close to 2010ö with the Omega design and Paul Bryant's note that he " æliftedÆ the centre section off the Leonov in 2010 for the centrifuge." JMS is talking about intent, and Bryant is talking about design. Two different things, each mentioned by the person with the knowledge to address it.

                          Ditto for your insistence that the CG Society comment that "his career in entertainment goes back to '84 when he started in animation" is a claim that JMS was an animator.

                          I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think you are finding things that do not exist (like "those that say the special effects are incidental û not important to the success or enjoyment of the show and it would be just as good without them"), and reaching conclusions that are unfounded (like "jms knows nothing about computer animation"). Arguing a point is one thing. Creating strawmen to fight and making unfounded statements that are pretty silly (how could JMS not have learned something about computer animation given the time he has spent on series using it?) is another.

                          You might want to revisit your verbage with a slightly less aggressive mindset, because the rest of the site is really well done. My congratulations.
                          I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Triple F View Post
                            A more common though subtle one is the whole Emmy award winning series do-da. Technically the series itself didn’t win an Emmy. Everett and crew did for the make up.
                            You don't win an emmy independent of the show. The emmy itself has the show's name engraved on it. They say "The winner is so-and-so for this show!"

                            Originally posted by Triple F View Post
                            @ Jonas
                            Ultimately responsible. Yes he is.

                            But on a day to day decision making side of things John Copeland should more likely be attributed as the producer who made them. If you look at the interview on B5Scrolls you’ll see everyone mention his name (with no prompting from me ), and only occasionally Joe.
                            I am pretty sure you missed Jonas' point which was that the show wouldn't be good if jms hadn't created the story and the characters.

                            Originally posted by Triple F View Post
                            John did discuss with Joe a lot of things sometimes in great detail, but he also did things (they all did) off their own back to create things beyond what was in the script. The creation of the Vorlon fleet at the end of the Pilot movie being a case in point. As John said, everyone was encouraged to bring creative ideas to the table. Yes Joe said yes to them, but that’s not the same as coming up with them in the first place is it. AND that’s the point of B5Scrolls to highlight some of those that did.
                            I don't want to give the impression that jms was the one who thought up absolutely everything to do with the show, but you often take the opposite tact that he pretty much did nothing but write scripts and nod his head to other people, which is an incorrect perception as well.
                            Last edited by JoeD80; 07-01-2008, 03:01 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              You know, this is a pointless pissing contest really. What I read of the site, given the visual issues mentioned at the top of this thread, began and ended with Ron Thornton's interview, which seemed to go out of its way (Ron Thornton's parts anyway) to say "Joe didn't do this, Joe didn't do that" etc. Just seemed as little unnecessary, I was hoping for a little more actual tech stuff from him.

                              Beyond that, I only have one thing to say. JMS was not only the creator of B5, but the showrunner. Like the head of any organisation, a great deal of the skill is not in what you can do, but in your ability to hire the best people to do the "Doing".

                              JMS knew was he was good at and (as creator) had ideas about how he wanted things to work. He then hired the people he needed to (a) make those things happen and (b) improve where possible on his initial ideas given their greater specific and specialised knowledge. That's what good leaders/showrunners do.

                              And like in any other industry, although an individual may win a specific award, it is intrisically linked to the company or organisation (or in this case, show) for which it is done, for the simple reason that the award winning piece of work would not have been done were it not for that organisation. I don't see anyone quibbling about statiing that Return of the King and Ben Hur won 11 Oscars each, when each and every one of those Oscars was wone by individuals or teams for specific work done on those movies.
                              The Optimist: The glass is half full
                              The Pessimist: The glass is half empty
                              The Engineer: The glass is twice as big as it needs to be

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I don't think the argument is about the show being credited for the accomplishment of any single contributor, be it Ron Thornton or anyone else. It's about the showrunner as an individual being solely credited for accomplishments others had significant, if not the main input. The comparison relevant would not be RotK being credited for 11 Oscars, but Peter Jackson being credited for all of them, including those awarded to technical and creative teams.

                                It happens elsewhere, and I don't like that tendency either. And I've seen people complaining when JMS is at the receiving end of such reports. For a very current example, when Changeling is universally labelled a "Clint Eastwood film", or an "Angelina Jolie film", and JMS isn't even mentioned as a writer.

                                Strictly speaking, the two Hugo's were awarded to B5 for "Best Dramatic Presentation". It's an award for a team's work, and yet often it is listed as if the Hugo's were awarded to JMS as the sole recipient. It's even more obvious with technical Emmies. Same thing with the comic book works - in some instances, JMS is referred to as the sole awardee, when actually the award was given to the comic book, including the artist and supporting staff. It's as annoying for fans of the people neglected as the disregard of JMS in the Changeling case is for JMS' fans. In either case, I don't see how it diminishes the accomplishments of a director or showrunner or writer or creator if credit is given to the team when it is due.

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