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  • What if..?

    Both minor and MAJOR spoilers for some Babylon 5 plot points exist in this post. Might not want to read if you havn't seen all of B5 just yet. Just so you guys know.

    Having watched through all 5 seasons of Babylon 5 for the 23rd time (or so), I still find new things every time I re-watch an episode which I havn't thought of before. But it also made me think.. What if? What if, and how would Babylon 5 be if things didn't turn out the way they did? Say for instance what if Takashima ("The Gathering") would have stayed on the show after the pilot movie? She would have been "control" (?), not Talia and how would we then know Ivanova? Would she have been more of a Corwin-character so to speak?
    Speaking of which, what if Talia decided to stay on the show? Correct me if I am wrong but it was the actress behind Talia who wanted of B5, correct? If so, who would have been "control"? And would we see Talia instead of Lyta in S5? Would Ironharts gifts lead to her version of Lyta's special inhanced powers?
    What if Claudia Christian (Ivanova) decided to stay for the 5th season? Would we see Tracy Scoggins at all? Would we see more Ivanova-action so to speak?
    What if Marcus wouldn't have died saving Ivanova and would thus have been able to stay on the show?
    What if Kosh wouldn't have died in S3? What would then happen with him / Sheridan / the rest of B5 when the Shadows and Vorlons openly attacked eachother?
    As you guys can probably see, I have way to few things to do with my mind, but still, I hope this leads to some interesting discussions
    "Understanding is a three-edged sword"

  • #2
    Originally posted by TheFirstOne View Post
    Say for instance what if Takashima ("The Gathering") would have stayed on the show after the pilot movie? She would have been "control" (?), not Talia and how would we then know Ivanova? Would she have been more of a Corwin-character so to speak?
    Well originally Lyta was planned to carry over from the pilot as well. Takashima would have been control. Ivanova or a character like her may have shown up to replace Takashima later.

    jms:

    Easy. Takashima would have been the one to be Control. A Psi Corps plant. (Her background on Mars would've been the perfect time for it to have happened.) When Laurel went away, I took that one thread and passed it along to Talia, setting it up as early as the very first episode, when Talia and Ivanova first meet, and later reluctantly have a drink.
    Originally posted by TheFirstOne View Post
    Speaking of which, what if Talia decided to stay on the show? Correct me if I am wrong but it was the actress behind Talia who wanted of B5, correct? If so, who would have been "control"? And would we see Talia instead of Lyta in S5? Would Ironharts gifts lead to her version of Lyta's special inhanced powers?
    Andrea Thompson did ask to leave the show near the end of season two. If she hadn't gone, the episode "Divided Loyalties" wouldn't have existed -- since jms says in the scriptbook that he wrote that episode specifically to facilitate her leaving the show. I'm not sure if she would have still been control and we would have just found out later in the show. Some have suggested this got passed to Garibaldi, but I found this message:

    No, the Garibaldi situation doesn't relate to or act as a surrogate for that earlier thread.
    Talia was intended to be the telepath for all the seasons once her character was created and Ironheart's gift was going to be the way that her powers increased to doomsday-weapon proportions. jms mentions this in the script books somewhere too. Don't know which volume off-hand.

    Originally posted by TheFirstOne View Post
    What if Claudia Christian (Ivanova) decided to stay for the 5th season? Would we see Tracy Scoggins at all? Would we see more Ivanova-action so to speak?
    Tracy Scoggins was only cast as a replacement once Claudia was off the show, so you definitely would not have seen her. As far as Ivanova, she would have been Captain of Babylon 5 and was supposed to get involved with Byron and also possibly discover more shadow-tech on the Earth ships.

    Originally posted by TheFirstOne View Post
    What if Marcus wouldn't have died saving Ivanova and would thus have been able to stay on the show?
    From various jms postings, it seems that it might have been planned for Marcus to have come back in Season 5 if Ivanova had remained, even with the death scene. The Marcus death scene was written before Claudia left, and jms had Marcus planned as a character on Crusade. Later, jms said

    We had to change Drake to Gideon because of a clearance problem, and obviously the Claudia situation threw a monkey wrench into using the character of Markus, as originally planned.
    No real details on how Marcus would have been revived though.

    Originally posted by TheFirstOne View Post
    What if Kosh wouldn't have died in S3? What would then happen with him / Sheridan / the rest of B5 when the Shadows and Vorlons openly attacked eachother?
    Um I think Kosh died because the Vorlons attacked the Shadows right? So that was kind of the event that started the open attacking. So if Kosh hadn't died I think it still would have been the same, since Kosh's death happened after the Vorlons first attacked the Shadows.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
      Um I think Kosh died because the Vorlons attacked the Shadows right? So that was kind of the event that started the open attacking. So if Kosh hadn't died I think it still would have been the same, since Kosh's death happened after the Vorlons first attacked the Shadows.
      Very interesting read, and thanks for the reply What I meant about the Kosh dying part was that the reason Kosh died was not because the actor wanted off, but because as jms says, it was the right thing to do (I read this at lurkers episode guide, ep 315 I believe). My question was, what if jms didn't think of this, would Kosh then refuse to leave the station in season 4, much like the Vorlon who came after him did? Would Sheridan still have e piece of Kosh in him? Would Sheridan and his people *really* open fire at Kosh, Sheridans mentor so to speak?

      By the way, if anyone else feels like dropping a "what if", go right ahead, the more babylon 5 discussions the better
      "Understanding is a three-edged sword"

      Comment


      • #4
        What if...JMS hadn't decided on a 5 year story but had gone with the more normal 7 year contracts? As I'm concentrating more on the "Other Voices" episodes lately I'm getting much more appreciative of the contributions that they made to the B5 universe. While JMS concentrated on the 'big picture' and epic story, the other writers added depth and texture to the races. Adira and Urza Jaddo gave us real insight to the Centauri culture in a way that Londo and Vir alone couldn't.

        Sometimes I think it might have been nice if there had been more time to explore more of the facets of the B5 universe even if each episode didn't move the arc forward.

        Jan
        "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jan View Post
          What if...JMS hadn't decided on a 5 year story but had gone with the more normal 7 year contracts? As I'm concentrating more on the "Other Voices" episodes lately I'm getting much more appreciative of the contributions that they made to the B5 universe. While JMS concentrated on the 'big picture' and epic story, the other writers added depth and texture to the races. Adira and Urza Jaddo gave us real insight to the Centauri culture in a way that Londo and Vir alone couldn't.

          Sometimes I think it might have been nice if there had been more time to explore more of the facets of the B5 universe even if each episode didn't move the arc forward.

          Jan
          Possible, very possible. The flip-side on this could possibly be a bit slower tempo than with the 5-year arc. Season 3 is for me simply awesome in the way it leads up to everything from the B4-through time storyline, to breaking away from earth to... Z'ha'dum. Tempo could be a bit lower if you had 7 years instead of 5 like I said, but I guess that's the price. Lower tempo = More depth. Still, jms could surely pull it off eh?
          "Understanding is a three-edged sword"

          Comment


          • #6
            In that list the only tragedy to me is loosing Ivanova. Lochley, IMO, can't hold a candle to her.

            Lyta I liked better than Talia from day one.

            I liked and missed Marcus a ton. But, I in all likely hood I would have been disappointed if he "came back from the dead." I think normal shows do that too much for drama and I start loosing interest in them. JMS conceivably could have wrote it convincingly but who knows.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by byong View Post
              I liked and missed Marcus a ton. But, I in all likely hood I would have been disappointed if he "came back from the dead." I think normal shows do that too much for drama and I start loosing interest in them. JMS conceivably could have wrote it convincingly but who knows.
              A small spoiler for you:

              jms did end up later writing a short story detailing Marcus' fate beyond season 4. Not the original plan, considering when the story takes place, but there was a little bit more written about him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TheFirstOne View Post
                Very interesting read, and thanks for the reply What I meant about the Kosh dying part was that the reason Kosh died was not because the actor wanted off, but because as jms says, it was the right thing to do (I read this at lurkers episode guide, ep 315 I believe). My question was, what if jms didn't think of this, would Kosh then refuse to leave the station in season 4, much like the Vorlon who came after him did? Would Sheridan still have e piece of Kosh in him? Would Sheridan and his people *really* open fire at Kosh, Sheridans mentor so to speak?

                By the way, if anyone else feels like dropping a "what if", go right ahead, the more babylon 5 discussions the better
                A couple of things to add to Joe's list, from the scriptbooks and newsgroup postings I've read:

                If Talia hadn't left, she would still have been control and it would still have taken over (so something like the 'Divided Loyalties' episode would exist, at some point), but Kosh would use the recording of her mind made by himself and Abbutt in season one to restore her original personality, presumably so she could go on to fulfil Lyta's eventual role in the Shadow and Earth Civil Wars.

                And as for Kosh, JMS said that the plan originally was for him to go to X'ha'adum with Sheridan and die there protecting him, sacrificing his life for him. Instead he had Kosh sacrifice himself for Sheridan sooner and reluctantly leaving him to go to X'ha'adum alone, though he was able to store a piece of himself in Sheridan to help him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
                  A small spoiler for you:

                  jms did end up later writing a short story detailing Marcus' fate beyond season 4. Not the original plan, considering when the story takes place, but there was a little bit more written about him.
                  I still love that story, even if it was panned by many fans. I would love to see the look on Ivanova's face if she ever found out what he really did
                  What a wonderful world you live in. -
                  Yeah, well, the rent is cheap, the pay is decent and I get to make my own hours.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by raw_bean View Post
                    A couple of things to add to Joe's list, from the scriptbooks and newsgroup postings I've read:

                    If Talia hadn't left, she would still have been control and it would still have taken over (so something like the 'Divided Loyalties' episode would exist, at some point), but Kosh would use the recording of her mind made by himself and Abbutt in season one to restore her original personality, presumably so she could go on to fulfil Lyta's eventual role in the Shadow and Earth Civil Wars.

                    And as for Kosh, JMS said that the plan originally was for him to go to X'ha'adum with Sheridan and die there protecting him, sacrificing his life for him. Instead he had Kosh sacrifice himself for Sheridan sooner and reluctantly leaving him to go to X'ha'adum alone, though he was able to store a piece of himself in Sheridan to help him.
                    Ahh, very interesting the whole Talia-control thing and a very smart way of keeping Talia on the show even though she *was* control. Come to think of it, I always did wonder why Kosh did that data-crystal thingy in Season 1.. jms has plans for every little detail in this show, doesn't he? One can help but admire...


                    Originally posted by glindros View Post
                    I still love that story, even if it was panned by many fans. I would love to see the look on Ivanova's face if she ever found out what he really did
                    I seem kind of lost here.. What was that story?
                    "Understanding is a three-edged sword"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TheFirstOne View Post
                      I seem kind of lost here.. What was that story
                      If you want a quick give-away-absolutely-everything spoiler:

                      SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

                      DON'T READ

                      SPOILER

                      Marcus is revived 300 years later (if you look at the end credits of "Sleeping in Light" you'll notice that Ivanova had Marcus frozen), and goes about recreating Ivanova -- with a new body grown for her (he freezes himself again so that he can wake up when the new body is fully grown), Ivanova's DNA and Ivanova's personality recordings (recorded on data crystals stolen from a museum) -- so he can live happily together with her.

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                      • #12
                        That bear bones spoiler doesn't give much of what I like about the story away, but I really like it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I love the story too, but a quick overview of the story necessarily gives away most of the plot without any of the fun details. It's worth a read if one can track it down.

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                          • #14
                            Anyone think it could be worth a "Lost Tale?"

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sheridan View Post
                              Anyone think it could be worth a "Lost Tale?"
                              Would make a wonderful lost tale IMO.
                              Duracell Bunny is arrested and charged with BATTERY!!

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