Just a What if...

[JoeD80]

As for the Legend Of The Rangers. ItÆs interesting. Someone can correct me if IÆm wrong. But whereas itÆs pretty widely agreed that studio interference played a part in Crusades demise and general quality, there doesnÆt seem to be the same understanding that what was seen on screen in LOTR may have been caused by the exact same type of interference.

The ratings are the only thing that killed Legend of the Rangers:

The east coast ratings got hammered by the football game, which was the highest rated such game in something like 5 years. The B5 male demos are pretty much the same as for sports, and we lost heavily to football. So there we did not do well.

the problem with Rangers going down had nothing to do with personalities or difficulties working with anybody and everything to do with ratings vs. costs.

For example, the LiandraÆs holographic targeting system û does anyone really believe thatÆs what the likes of Chris Wren came up with or what jms was really envisaging.

Somewhere around here I remember reading a quote where jms says that's exactly what he wanted to do because he was trying to do something different.

[Triple F]

The ratings are the only thing that killed Legend of the Rangers

I was referring to what was in the show that was included to keep studio execs happy, and which ôfansö later tore into saying things like jms has lost the plot. The execs interference is often attributed to CrusadeÆs failure but doesnÆt seem to be even hinted at with regards to LOTRÆs content.

Somewhere around here I remember reading a quote where jms says that's exactly what he wanted to do because he was trying to do something different

Yes . . . . . . well, and if he had pointed out the execs had basically FUBARÆed his original vision (and content) of the show do you think he would have ever been given another chance by any studio û especially after declaring what happened with Crusade to all and sundry. Could it be possible that he has to live in the real world where actions like that have consequences.

[Jan]

As for the Legend Of The Rangers. ItÆs interesting. Someone can correct me if IÆm wrong. But whereas itÆs pretty widely agreed that studio interference played a part in Crusades demise and general quality, there doesnÆt seem to be the same understanding that what was seen on screen in LOTR may have been caused by the exact same type of interference.

Nothing's ever been said about any unusual amounts of notes from the Sci-Fi Channel but I'm sure there had to have been some since that's just the way things are. Personally, I enjoyed the Rangers movie and didn't find it lacking in quality except in a few effects shots (no Epsilon 3, for example) due to the loss of the files.

For example, the LiandraÆs holographic targeting system û does anyone really believe thatÆs what the likes of Chris Wren came up with or what jms was really envisaging.

Dunno...who's Chris Wren? One thing I do know is that the description of the weapons system in the script was different from what we saw. Whether that's the result of notes, meetings, the director or something else, we won't know until and unless JSM addresses it in a future script book.

The reality is, B5 was a fluke for a very large number of reasons. One was the stuidioÆs staying more or less out of it. That didnÆt happen later on, and as Joe has largely moved on to bigger and better things himself, I think it is unlikely that heÆs going to spend too much time ôkillingö himself again trying to do it all over again. Partly because, unless the studioÆs stay the Fuà.. out of it, it CANÆT be made.

B5 or anything else, JMS has said he'll never attempt anything so intense again. It almost killed him (literally) the first time. Neither Crusade nor Rangers was ever supposed to be anywhere near as complex as B5.

Jan

[JoeD80]

I was referring to what was in the show that was included to keep studio execs happy, and which “fans” later tore into saying things like jms has lost the plot. The execs interference is often attributed to Crusade’s failure but doesn’t seem to be even hinted at with regards to LOTR’s content.

That was my point. On Legend of the Rangers there wasn't anything included to make studio execs happy. jms specifically said there was no interference when it came to LOTR:

Nothing's ever been said about any unusual amounts of notes from the Sci-Fi Channel but I'm sure there had to have been some since that's just the way things are.

Only one note from Sci-Fi:

WB had NO NOTES on the thing. SFC had ONE note, to make one word (entil'zha) a bit louder because it's kind of a plot point.

Yes . . . . . . well, and if he had pointed out the execs had basically FUBAR’ed his original vision (and content) of the show do you think he would have ever been given another chance by any studio – especially after declaring what happened with Crusade to all and sundry.

Absolutley. He has a reputation in the television industry going all the way back to the 80s for being upfront and a pain in the ass and not letting anyone off easy. People still employ him.

[Triple F]

Dunno...who's Chris Wren? One thing I do know is that the description of the weapons system in the script was different from what we saw. Whether that's the result of notes, meetings, the director or something else, we won't know until and unless JSM addresses it in a future script book.

Know how you said youÆll have to read that site IÆm putting together one day . . . .DonÆt right now. When the final version is all done, then read it. Both those questions û and one or two others - are answered in it.

[Orta]

I don't think Crusade nor LOTR would have been as intense for JMS as Babylon 5 was. B5 was his baby and it had to be done his way. But I think because the arcs for Crusade and LOTR would have been less involved he would've easily just done 10 episodes a season out of the 22, rather than all 22!!!

Stargate is very successful, but it's made up of mostly standalones written by any old writer, whilst there's still a few heavy major storyline episodes. JMS could have reserved himself to simply write themajor storyline ones. Afterall the other writers were just as talented once given a rough outline by JMS. Fiona Avery's Crusade episodes are excellent (+ th unfilmed script, that's genuis!!) And the majority of the books written from a JMS outline are excellent too... proving JMS didn't need to flog himself to death to get Crusade or LOTR going. Afterall they weren't the favourite child...

[grumbler]

Babylon 5 ôThe Lost Talesö was the way to go after the series was over, had they discussed this early on (Jerry Doyle was very vocal when B5 ended that it should have continued for 5 more years) we would have had multiple Lost Tales in the can and something to watch to fill in those gaps.

I don't think the market forces were in place to make a direct-to-DVD version of B5 successful in 1998.

[rallytbk]

I don't think the market forces were in place to make a direct-to-DVD version of B5 successful in 1998.

Not direct-to-DVD, but to have produced "The Lost Tales" for TV as oppose to Crusade and or LOTR. The budgets for both (if they were not made) could have added more insight to the B5 universe, as mini movies...

During that time, Babylon 5 was in syndication and the viewers wanted more! River of Souls, Thirdspace, and In the Beginning added to the shows dimension. If JMS would have written "The Lost tales" instead of starting another series I think (IMHO) it would have survived longer then the short lived series and a pilot episode.

[Jan]

The problem is (was, actually) twofold. First, at the time Crusade came to be, B5 wasn't in syndication any longer, it was on TNT, a cable channel. Second, TNT wanted something completely different from B5 and originally didn't even want guest appearances by the original cast. That being the case, there was no way they were interested in anything resembling 'Lost Tales'. And finally, (okay, threefold ) shortly after they started filming 'Crusade' TNT got their market research and decided to kill Crusade no matter what. Chances are that if they'd opted for 'Lost Tales' style mini-movies instead, those would have suffered the same fate.

Jan

[Ayame]

Aha so that's where it went wrong. In any case, it would have been nicer (IMHO) if the lost tales would have been released after the series instead of crusade. Just personal taste of course, but I think it would have pushed more viewers back to the screen.

Does anyone know why Mira Furlan doesn't feature in any of the 'extra' B5 movies / series (In the beginning aside of course)? Such a shame such, she's a good actress!

[rallytbk]

Chances are that if they'd opted for 'Lost Tales' style mini-movies instead, those would have suffered the same fate.

Jan

True, Wishful thinking? There would have been a sense of closure with the mini-movies and something to revisit later. If the mini-movies became popular enough.

[Jan]

The nice thing about the Lost Tales style of storytelling is that, being anthology-style, they can be picked up any time. With a series, especially a JMS series, that's not the case.

Jan

[JoeD80]

Aha so that's where it went wrong. In any case, it would have been nicer (IMHO) if the lost tales would have been released after the series instead of crusade. Just personal taste of course, but I think it would have pushed more viewers back to the screen.

Wouldn't have mattered, because TNT canceled Crusade before it even aired. The same fate would have befallen any Babylon 5 followup. The market research Jan is referring to was done on season 5 of Babylon 5:

The problem was that apparently, as reported to them by a year-long survey they'd commissioned, TNT viewers didn't much care for SF. When B5 came along, the hardcore TNT viewers would tune out, and the B5 viewers would come in. But the average B5 viewer wasn't much interested in what TNT had to offer otherwise, so they tuned out at the end and the TNT viewers came back.

Does anyone know why Mira Furlan doesn't feature in any of the 'extra' B5 movies / series (In the beginning aside of course)? Such a shame such, she's a good actress!

She was in Thirdspace too. Since the movies were low budget, they could only use so many series regulars in each one:

Because we have only $3 million on which to make these movies, we have to rotate the cast because we can't afford to have them all in any one of them. Bruce and Mira were in the first two, so we gave Tracy a shot and put in Jerry as well as Corwin (his first), Zack and Franklin.

We're just looking for ways to be fair to the maximum number of cast with the
resources we have.

[Dan Dassow]

TNT in Atlanta

Aha so that's where it went wrong. In any case, it would have been nicer (IMHO) if the lost tales would have been released after the series instead of crusade. Just personal taste of course, but I think it would have pushed more viewers back to the screen.

Wouldn't have mattered, because TNT canceled Crusade before it even aired. The same fate would have befallen any Babylon 5 followup. The market research Jan is referring to was done on season 5 of Babylon 5:

In addition, the California contingent of TNT, fans of Babylon 5, made the fifth season of Babylon 5 possible. Unfortunately, the people from TNT headquarters in Atlanta were enamored by wrestling and did not particularly like Babylon 5 because it did not have the same audience as wrestling. We are lucky that the [inappropriate term deleted] at Atlanta did not kill off the fifth season of Babylon 5.

[Jan]

Because we have only $3 million on which to make these movies, ...

BTW, suddenly that looks like a lot. JMS revealed at Emerald City Comic Con that the first Lost Tales disk was made with a budget of TWO million dollars.



Jan