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  • Chain of Command

    I have been watching B5 from the start again and I am on All Alone In the Night. Anyways, I am somewhat confused on the various branches and ranks in Earthforce. We never hear "Navy" mentioned, but Sheridan, Ivanova and Garibaldi hold traditional naval ranks while the likewise blue-clad Hague is a general. Stephen's dad is also a general, but wears an olive Army-looking color -- EA Marines. Have we ever heard of any Admirals in Earthforce? I don't recall. But that would make Hague a Marine, also, with his general rank. Then again, they could just be using an all-new system of ranks and services. The B5 Security Manual (taken with a grain of salt) indicates that admirals do exist.
    Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

  • #2
    Was Ivanova a general or an admiral at the end? Can't quite pin it down...

    The way I saw it was simply that Generals were the admirals. A title switch, not much more. If there is an Admiral rank, it could refer to the top-tier general.
    Radhil Trebors
    Persona Under Construction

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    • #3
      Ivanova was a admiral at the end. My youngest and I were watching some deleted scenes from Sleeping In the Light a few nights ago and there is one with her that is great. I love Ivanova attitude.

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      • #4
        I believe there were admirals, these being the highest ranking general in the military at any given time, but dont quote me on that...

        Personally i think ''Admiral'' sounds cooler.
        ------------------------------------------------------------

        Respect the chain of command. Respect the chain of command. Respect the chain of command.

        [email protected]#$ cant make it stop
        Last edited by CRONAN; 05-31-2004, 02:37 PM.

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        • #5
          well I think that since a space force is not a navy (as a navy is sea going) and that fact that there is a single unifed command (which meens no seprate departments for the navy, army or air) they would use a single ranking system, which dosn't include Admirals.

          Or at lest that what I think I might be wrong dose any one know of an ep. that would prove or diprove (no books please)

          Marco
          The avalanche has already begun it is to late for the pebbles to vote.

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          • #6
            To your question, a quote:
            ----------------------------------------------------------------
            On the theory that some of the militaries have blended, the system of
            ranks is kind of a cross between the navy and the air force (at least the
            ones with which our characters will have any interaction). Probably an
            admiral would be more likely to run this place.

            At some point, we'll probably see what it looks like from the ship'
            POV leaving or entering hyperspace, yes.

            jms

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            • #7
              <<That fact that there is a single unifed command (which meens no seprate departments for the navy, army or air) they would use a single ranking system, which dosn't include Admirals.

              Or at lest that what I think I might be wrong dose any one know of an ep. that would prove or diprove (no books please)>>

              For one, "Navy" wouldn't be literal.

              Secondly, they could have equal grades with different rank names, like they do now in the separate branches. So it wouldn't make sense not to use the admiral rank if it's the same grade as general.
              Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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              • #8
                I think a military in space would have many similarities with the navy, for one thing the oceans are both very in hospitable, with it not being possible to survive more than a few hours/days alone out there.

                Also, both would require the use of some very big ships to traverse the depths, with crews, captains, etc to run them.

                I think its only a matter of time before the navy goes to space.
                Last edited by CRONAN; 05-31-2004, 02:59 PM.

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                • #9
                  well in Canada we have a navy (or so they tell us) but no admirals just Generals.

                  I don't think that it's unresonable to think that the same thing would happen in the future. and seeing that the officer of the mars fleet (which was the largest since the line) was commanded by a General I think I'm right.

                  Marco
                  The avalanche has already begun it is to late for the pebbles to vote.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by greenone
                    Ivanova was a admiral at the end. My youngest and I were watching some deleted scenes from Sleeping In the Light a few nights ago and there is one with her that is great. I love Ivanova attitude.
                    She is a General. Her publicist says "General, you're an important person now" ... The script reads "General" ... and I *think* the envelope has a close-up that shows General on it as well.
                    "Jan Schroeder is insane" - J. Michael Straczynski, March 2008

                    The Station: A Babylon 5 Podcast

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                    • #11
                      The rank structures in B5 get goobered up fairly frequently, because JMS himself didn't pay a whole lot of thought to the structure himself until later. He didn't want to ignore the "Air Force" traditions of the military, so he threw in some generals to replace the admirals (but still calls goups of ships fleets and their captains "captain").

                      There are some odd things, like how some XOs are Commanders and some are "majors" (and in at least one case you had a ship, the Alexander, with no captain or commander, just a "general" and a "major" - though circumstances there were somewhat unusual).

                      I know there is something "canon" on this somewhere, but cannot lay my hands on it.

                      Better for JMS to have stuck to the Navy ranks for the fleet personell and Army/Air Force/marine ranks for the GROPOs, so as to deny us the fun of talking about it, I think!
                      I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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                      • #12
                        Alright... I've spent a good deal of time studying up on this, so letme throw my two cents in.

                        First, "Admiral" as a rank is only mentioned once, in "And the Sky was Full of Stars".

                        Knight Two: Smart Money said you'd make Admiral one day!
                        That's it. The rest, Naval and Army alike, have been Generals, including Ivanova (with all the dozen of sources above listed).

                        Now, Naval officer rank structure to work like this:

                        Ensign - Lieutenant Jr. Grade - Lieutenant - Lieutenant Commander - Commander - Captain - and then the Admirality ranks

                        Also note that Warrant officers (which includes Garbaldi, as he holds the rank of "Chief Warrant Officer".) are a naval ranking system as well.

                        Army/Air Force/Marines officer ranks work like this:

                        2nd Lieutenant - 1st Lieutenant - Captain - Major - Lt. Colonel - Colonel

                        Most B5 rank debates I've seen tend to be about Major. Some people insist that it's part of the rank structure, however there's a number of things to defute this: mostly being that both Sheridan and Ivanova are promoted from Lieutenant Commander to Commander (ItB and Geometry of Shadows respectively), and Ivanova is later promoted to Captain. It could be inbetween Lieutenant and Lieutenant Commander, but every Major shown on the show were too old and too much in a position of authority for this to be the case. Besides the fact that it'd be going against traditional military history, which generally wouldn't happen so easily. But I digress.

                        Some other have attempted to inisist that Major is above Captain, but this one's easily refuted: Major Krantz salutes Commander Sinclair upon seeing him. The salute is generally a military curtosey given by a officer of lower rank to an officer of a higher rank. It dosen't happen the other way around, period. This aside, Major Ryan also defers pretty much to Sheridan, although since B5 Sheridan's turf he kind of had to.

                        So, now for my stance on it.

                        As grumbler had said, I think JMS originally either wasn't sure of the rank structure himself or didn't pay it much mind till later when he noticed that people on the undernet were paying a lot of attention to it. So how do we fit the Major's in eh?

                        Well, I think the easiest way is to insist that they're army ranks, and thus army commanders.

                        How does it fit for Major Ryan then? Well, Hague was down meeting with some officals on Proxima (Or Orion VII, not sure at the moment), it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for his XO to be with him at such proceedings (Sinclair/Sheridan certainly did such a thing enough times with Ivanova). If I'm not mistaken each EarthForce ship has a number of ground forces onboard, which would require an Army officer of significant rank present (although there's a number of other places we could fit in an Army officer). This would open the door for Ryan to be a significant part of the ship, just as Garibaldi was a significant part of B5. With the Captain and the XO dead, it's not hard to see how the highest ranking officer, regardless of what branch he's in, might take command of the ship, especially considering that they're all renegades as it is and are pretty desperate at this point.

                        There is of course one thing that kind of blows a hole in my rationalization of what most likely is just a writer inconsistancy: Major Atumbe, who was supposed to be the 3rd in command, so to speak, of B5. But since he was mentioned *once* ever and never shown on screen and pretty much pushed over by Corwin who pretty much all the fans, as well as jms in time, accepted as the third-in-command, I like to make believe he didn't exist, and thus my rationalization works, and I may relax and enjoy the show.

                        Whew. Hope that solves more questions then it creates

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                        • #13
                          Here is an overview of the Earth Force military command structure, as per B5tech.com:

                          http://www.b5tech.com/misctech/earth...forcerank.html


                          General - Earthforce Star Navy:
                          Highest command rank of any Earthforce officers, with rank ranging between 1 and 5 stars. The Earthforce General who commands the whole of the Star Navy fleet is given the "Title" but not the rank of, Admiral. The rank of Admiral does not exist.
                          __One Star: Brigadier General
                          __Two Star: Major General
                          __Three Star: Lieutenant General
                          __Four Star: Full General
                          __Five Star: General of the Navy (Reserved for wartime only)
                          Some Generals who maintain command of a starship, like General Hague, will have a General's star crossed over or imbedded in captains' bars.


                          Captain - Earthforce Star Navy:
                          Command rank of Earthforce officers with authority to command a single starships, base or military installation. Tenured captains can also be given commands of fleets and carrier groups. Equivalent rank in Earthforce Army & Marines is Colonel.
                          Commander - Earthforce Star Navy:
                          Command rank of Earthforce officers, with authority to command a military installation, usually placed in position of executive or first officer aboard any Earthforce command. Equivalent rank in Earthforce Army & Marines is Lt. Colonel.
                          Lieutenant Commander - Earthforce Star Navy:
                          Command rank of Earthforce officers, with authority of executive or first officer aboard some Earthforce commands. Equivalent rank in Earthforce Army & Marines is Major.
                          Lieutenant - Earthforce Star Navy:
                          Enilisted officer aboard any Earthforce starship, or outpost. Equivalent rank in Earthforce Army & Marines is Captain.
                          Junior Lieutenant - Earthforce Star Navy:
                          Enilisted officer aboard any Earthforce starship, or outpost. Equivalent rank in Earthforce Army & Marines is First Lieutenant.
                          Ensign - Earthforce Star Navy:
                          Lowest ranked enilisted officer aboard any Earthforce starship, or outpost. Equivalent rank in Earthforce Army & Marines is also Second Lieutenant.
                          Warrant Officer - Earthforce Star Navy.
                          Highest enlisted officer rank ranging from W-1 to W-4 for the Navy, W-1 to W-5 for Army, Marines and Security.
                          Enlisted Man - Earthforce Star Navy.
                          Crewman have several ranks, ranging from E-1 to E-9. Examples of enlisted man rank are: E-1 = Starman (Private), E-5 = Petty Officer Second Class (Sergeant), and E-9 = Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy (Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps).
                          Fleet Command Duty Insignia.
                          Command Officer Duty Insignia.
                          Personnel & Command Officer Duty Insignia.
                          Standard Personnel Staff Duty Insignia.
                          Medical Staff Duty Insignia.
                          Security Staff Duty Insignia.
                          Pilot's Staff Duty Insignia.
                          Science & Engeneering Staff Duty Insignia.
                          Special Opperations Duty Insignia.
                          UNIFORM COLOR NOTE: Earthforce Navy wear Blue uniforms. Army wear Brown while Marines wear Green and security forces wear Gray.
                          Last edited by CRONAN; 06-01-2004, 12:01 AM.

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                          • #14
                            You're going at it all wrong. The major rank is not meant to be worked in with the lieutenant/commander/captain system...it must be a different branch.

                            But hey, we have it easy. The Star Wars Rebel Alliance ranks are a bigger clusterscrew than anything.
                            Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                              You're going at it all wrong. The major rank is not meant to be worked in with the lieutenant/commander/captain system...it must be a different branch.

                              But hey, we have it easy. The Star Wars Rebel Alliance ranks are a bigger clusterscrew than anything.
                              Uhhhh my point was that it wasn't supposed to be worked in to that system and that it had to be in a different branch :P

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