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  • #1

    Apocalypse Box

    Very sorry to hear about Mr. Biggs, 44 is just way to young. :-( Like all the actors on the show I really enjoyed his performance.

    And maybe this is a bad time to ask, but I just found this forum... I was really digging Crusade and loved the Apocalypse Box that Gary Cole had tucked away in his room... What's the expanded history of that thing? Over the course of the show was it going to be explained? It's been nagging at me for a long time.
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  • #2
    I guess we'll never know...
    I was always intrigued by a JMS comment:
    http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-1105
    And in later instances when the box talks, it's Gideon's/Gary's
    voice. You may take that as foreshadowing if you wish.
    Another tantalizing clue was that the Apocalypse Box seemed bent on keeping itself secret, especially from Galen, and Galen was starting to suspect something...
    If I remember correctly Galen's suspicion would have been shown in the unfilmed season finale episodes, where the Apocalypse Box gave Gideon some info that sent him in a path at odds with Galen...

    I also would like to know more.
    Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
    James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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    • #3
      WARNING PLOT SPOILER







      Yes, it was funny how those who confided in the box eventually ended up dead. Too bad about Gideon....

      That was some cliffhanger he had in store for us. With no future seasons in store, Crusade is more or less stuck in limbo.

      Hopefully well at least get some periferal info as to the fate of these characters and other plot elements in a future B5 project.
      Last edited by CRONAN; 05-25-2004, 04:08 PM.

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      • #4
        Where did you get this tasty little tidbit from? If this is true then I may have been on the right track when I pictured Gideon going away and then being replaced by a more nobel captain, much like Sheridan replaced Sinclair. Although it would appear that Gideons fate differs greatly from Sinclairs. Michael O'Hare was not the worst actor for the part but he was the weekest link in the first season, in my opinion. Once Sheridan came on board that's when the ball really got rolling. I was antipating something would happen to Gideon based on the fact that he's not that great of an actor either. At the time I thought that the network wanted Sinclair gone for the same reasons, so JMS rewrote the story to bring Sheridan in. But now I think it was planned that way from the start, again supporting my projections about Gideon. More data on this subject is required to say for sure. Anyone who has the answers or info on this, please feel free to enlighten me.

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        • #5
          WARNING ANOTHER PLOT SPOILER





          I can't say I agree with you in regards to Gideon. Nor do I believe it was Jms's intent to kill him off in favor of a B5 character taking his place.

          The cliffhanger is taken from the unproduced Crusade script, ''The End of the Line''. Sadly its not available on bookface anymore.

          Jms has expressedly asked fans not to distribute them online. This could be an indication that some of the plot developments in the scripts may not be set into stone.
          Last edited by CRONAN; 05-25-2004, 05:38 PM.

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          • #6
            Spoilers Galore!!

            The debate of whether Sinclair was replaced by WB suits decision still rages on... but I tend to believe JMS's statement on O'Hare's departure which denies that (it's archived at the Lurker's Guide).
            My opinion on that is that JMS orginally conceived B5 as the story of Sinclair only, but having a single character reorganizing and leading the Rangers, organizing everyone against the Shadows, then liberating Earth, leading the Interstellar Alliance, and becoming Valen in the end was too much. Thus he split that in two characters.
            I think the end result was great and worked fine.


            I dont't think that Sinclair's replacement would have been mirrored by Gideon's replacement. The simplest (and more subjective) explanation I have for that is that JMS wouldn't have done the same thing twice.
            And I think that Gary Cole did play the part quite well. Gideon was not supposed to be like Sheridan or Sinclair, that's all.



            There are other ways to get the unproduced Crusade scripts... and that already generated quite a bit of discussion around here.
            http://jmsnews.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=119


            I haven't read them for a while, so some of what I say below may be a bit off.



            There's just no way to discuss the Apocalypse Box meaningfully without spoilers so those that would rather watch Crusade without should really stay away...




            And this includes spoilers about the Technomages.



            With that warning in place I'll go on and mention some of what I know and/or suppose.



            The Apocalypse Box did not want Galen to know about it because of the technomage's Shadow Tech. It is likely that Galen would have known something about the Box or recognized it as Shadow Tech (if it was that, no definite clues were ever given of its origin I think).
            There was something living, something ancient inside, but what it was was not revealed.

            The search that Gideon started by Apocalypse's Box suggestion had to do with the ship that destroyed the Cerberus (where Gideon was the sole survivor and only because Galen saved him, while he was travelling in the Technomage exodus during the Shadow War)

            The secret of what that ship was is closely related to what Ivanova fights agains in "Between the Darkness and the Light"
            Shadow Tech enhanced Earth Alliance black projects.

            When Gideon was about to reveal this in Mars he was shot... end of season 1.
            But the script says nothing of him dying... I think that he would have been saved in the beginning of S2, most likely with Galen's help.

            And the Apocalypse Box would have tried to grab him further under its spell... I think that the end of that arc was still far into season 2 or 3.

            But that's just speculation...
            Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
            James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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            • #7
              I always thought of the Apocolypse Box as sort of a reverse-analog of the critter in The path of Sorrows. It gave you what you thought you wanted but really least needed. the fact that it was using Gideon's voice means to me that it was, at least in part, reflecting back to him a part of himself - and given its treacherous nature, that was probably not the best part of him...

              ****spoiler******

              Agre absolutely that the AB feared Galen would recognize the signature elements of Shadow tech. The box would be an excellent way to weed out the Shadow subordinates that were "getting ahead of themselves" by making them reveal what they secretly wanted to do.

              ****/spoiler*****
              I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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              • #8
                My take on the O'Hare departure:

                1. JMS had written himself into a box with Sinclair. Not only was it going to be near-impossible to actually have one charactor do all the things planned for him, but Sinclair himself was too "wise" at the start. he knew himself well, and so couldn't embark on the "voyage of self-discovery" that JMS wanted his lead to embark on. So he needed a newer, more naive lead, and took the opportunity to move to one.

                2. O'Hare was a stage actor. That meant that he really did a fine job (IMO) with the role, but it also meant that he was maybe intensely uncomfortable working in an environment where he had little opportunity to rehearse. In the Jurasik and Fuerst interviews I have read, both mentioned, as I recall, a certain unnamed actor who was terribly stressed out, brought in dialogue coaches, etc, and left at the end of season one. I think O'Hare was uncomfortable with the shooting schedule (which he was unused to) and was glad to take the opportunity to move on with some grace.

                So, I think that the story that it was a mutually-arrived-at decision is, perhaps surprisingly given our love of rumors and innuendo, probably the correct one.
                I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Very Cool!

                  Thanks to both of you for sharing your knowlage and insight on this subject. I really hope that Crusade (the series) will be revived. I want to know where else JMS was going with this story. He can kill off Gideon for all I care but the whole story, needs to be told.

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                  • #10
                    We might be getting some of this tale in TMoS given JMS's sly point to the blackboard where TMoS 101 had been written and erased during the Q&A at the recent New Jersey comic con he attended.

                    According to Jan, JMS pointed to the now erased TMoS 101 when asked two questions, one about Crusade and the other about the Technomages.

                    We know that there were elements to be revealed in CRUSADE about shadow tech and the technomages, the AB and only the Great Maker knows what else.

                    These were elements JMS has intimated that he really wanted the chance to explore and reveal...a story left to be told.

                    Do not be surprised if portions of that tale are a part of TMoS.

                    CE
                    Last edited by colonyearth; 05-27-2004, 10:14 AM.
                    Anthony Flessas
                    Writer/Producer/Director,
                    SP Pictures


                    I have no avatar! I walk in mystery and need nothing to represent who and what I am!

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                    • #11
                      Interestingly, Firefly will be having a feature film made to tie up the arcs left unresolved in the show.

                      I would very much like to see this happen with Crusade.

                      Kudos.

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                      • #12
                        crusade is a missed opportunity if you ask me.

                        why in the hell didn't someone pick up the show for gods sake. just look at some of the crap that is on at the moment.
                        Duracell Bunny is arrested and charged with BATTERY!!

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                        • #13
                          also doesn't crusade fit with TMoS

                          'the memory of shadows'
                          Duracell Bunny is arrested and charged with BATTERY!!

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                          • #14
                            Technomages in the Telepath Crisis sounds posible... a few were out of the exile.

                            But how much of Crusade can be said if the Telepath War precedes the search for the cure by a few years?

                            I hope at least there will be some tie in of the Crusade story, maybe in anticipation/set-up of further B5 movies.

                            BTW: I found a good B5 chronology reference site:
                            Science Fiction Timeline Site . . . Babylon 5 History Page . . .
                            http://www.chronology.org/b-five/

                            Always useful to check that with such a wide story as B5.
                            Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                            James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              The techno-mages could fit in any number of ways into the movie, especially in regards to their connection to the Shadows.

                              Jms has not yet confirmed what tmos stands for, what it is about, when it takes place.



                              Last edited by CRONAN; 05-26-2004, 11:53 AM.

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