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When did Delenn KNOW Sinclair was Valen?

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  • #16
    What Delenn says in Soul Hunter is 'I knew you would come. We were right about you.'

    That does indeed suggest that the Grey Council were still capable of entertaining some doubt at that point in S1.

    Actually I never really understood why JMS put in Delenn's line in In the Beginning 'the human has a Minbari soul. And not just any soul. The soul of Valen'. Not only is it totally unnecessary for her to blurt out such a major spoiler, it also seems to contradict what we know about the triluminary and the way the Minbari react to Sinclair in S1.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by RMcD View Post
      What Delenn says in Soul Hunter is 'I knew you would come. We were right about you.'

      That does indeed suggest that the Grey Council were still capable of entertaining some doubt at that point in S1.
      Also recall in "Soul Hunter" that the Soul Hunter says to Sinclair "Don't you understand? They're using you!" after looking into Delenn's Soul -- and this scene is brought up in flashback in War Without End when Sinclair says "My life has been leading to this" so I would get the impression that the Minbari were already planning the Valen transformation at this point.

      jms 5/19/1996:

      And the Soul Hunter meant they're using
      him to create their old Leader.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Jan View Post
        Has anybody read "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" recently? As I recall it was determined that Sinclair become 'Entil'Zha' because of prophecy but I don't recall exactly how they determined it was him specifically.

        Jan
        I just started reading it a couple of months ago. Thanks for reminding me of this book! --- Kosh and Ulkesh are both on Minbar in the book -- since they were alive 1000 years ago, it's likely they were the ones to inform the Minbari about the whole Sinclair issue, since they knew him personally from that time. Ulkesh is introduced in the book as the "Vorlon ambassador to Minbar."

        Also found a note from before that book was published

        jms 5/20/1996:

        Suffice to say that Kosh knew Valen from way, way back....
        Also found an interesting note from jms that the Minbari and Vorlons had been out of contact for only 100 years and "The Gathering" was when they re-established it.

        jms 7/27/1996:

        ...; that the Minbari had had little to no direct
        contact with the Vorlons in well over a hundred years and likely would
        not have told them what they found at the Battle of the Line until such
        time as personal contact had been made again, which only happened at
        Kosh's arrival...and there wasn't exactly time to make a report after
        he rolled into B5 for the first time.
        I would guess Kosh informed Delenn after meeting and before the Soul Hunter business, but she wasn't absolutely sure until looking into "the face of a Vorlon" in "Chrysalis" -- which leads to her decision to step in to the Chrysalis herself.

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        • #19
          How would the knowledge that Sinclair, the insignificant soldier they snatched by chance during the Battle of the Line - and tortured no less - was their revered leader Valen have influenced Delenn and Lennier specifically? Wouldn't that have dimished their esteem for Valen?
          Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side and the truth.
          John Sheridan

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          • #20
            Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
            Also found an interesting note from jms that the Minbari and Vorlons had been out of contact for only 100 years and "The Gathering" was when they re-established it.

            jms 7/27/1996:
            ...; that the Minbari had had little to no direct
            contact with the Vorlons in well over a hundred years and likely would
            not have told them what they found at the Battle of the Line until such
            time as personal contact had been made again, which only happened at
            Kosh's arrival...and there wasn't exactly time to make a report after
            he rolled into B5 for the first time.
            I guess that's another thing jms changed when he wrote In The Beginning since in it Kosh and Ulkesh are on the same ship as the Grey Council during, or at least immediately before, the Battle of the Line. And it seemed to be some level of their influence that caused Delenn to pick Sinclair to be brought on board and scanned/interrogated.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Joe Nazzaro View Post
              I think it's safe to assume that Delenn knew from quite early on. If you assume that she knew during 'The Gathering,' it adds a somewhat different dimension to the pilot, particularly the somewhat innocuous scene introducing Kosh to the rest of the ambassadors; look at Delenn's reaction and you may see it in a different way now.
              Hey Joe, I was wondering if you could elaborate on this a bit more. I was looking for it, but am not really seeing anything more then Delenn stepping forward and giving a "how ya doing" head nod.
              "Babylon 5 was the last of the Babylon stations. There would never be another. It changed the future, and it changed us..."

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              • #22
                I've always thought that Delenn's nod to Kosh was nothing more than a hint at the fact that they knew each other before they came to B5. Especially with jms's comments like this:

                Here's one little extra for you: only one person aboard Babylon 5 has any
                idea of what a Vorlon is, inside that suit, and only one race has had dealings
                with the Vorlons before. Watch the reception at the end, and see if you
                notice anything unusual in the way the various people respond to Kosh.
                (You know, I really do get a bit of a giddy feeling whenever I read any of jms's really old posts like this one. )

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by WorkerCaste View Post
                  That's exactly why I think they had identified Valen's soul in sinclair, but not the fact that Sinclair was Valen. As the quote posted by JoeD80 (JMS 1/14/1998) points out, they were willing to possibly kill him since the soul would be reborn into another body.
                  Thats the view that I'v always taken, seems very inline with JMS's writting thoughout the series to me aswell.
                  Who are you?
                  What do you want?
                  What is the average inflight speed of an unladened swallow?

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                  • #24
                    Well, however Sinclair was "selected" in the Battle of the line, why do they still revere Valen after finding out it was in fact J. Sinclair?
                    Even though he knows that, Callenn doesn't want Delenn to mate with Sheridan for reasons of purity. So, humans weren't generally held in high esteem, only Valen.
                    Why? After all, they chased him and his children off Minbar. They don't even know how, when or where he died. Or where is body is. Only his children returned to Minbar. (Atonement)
                    What caused them to change heart? Do we know? Was it mentioned somewhere or is this simply a potential Lost Tale?
                    Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side and the truth.
                    John Sheridan

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                    • #25
                      I haven't got all the script books yet. Hoping Santa's good to me. Anyway I remember in A voice in the Wilderness Delenn not having Sinclair go down to Epsilon 3 because he has a destiny. This line seems to confirm that the Minbari (at least Delenn) know who he is.

                      There are hints in Soul Hunter, but the earliest give away is the gathering ( I'm not sure which version) where Kosh calls him en'til'za Valen.
                      Last edited by glindros; 12-22-2007, 12:01 PM.
                      What a wonderful world you live in. -
                      Yeah, well, the rent is cheap, the pay is decent and I get to make my own hours.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by glindros View Post
                        There are hints in Soul Hunter, but the earliest give away is the gathering ( I'm not sure which version) where Kosh calls him en'til'za Valen.
                        Kosh does not call Sinclair that. Kosh thinks that to himself, we only "hear" it through Lyta (there's a JMS post that states this).

                        My personal opinion on this is that Delenn did not know Sinclair was/would become Valen until WWE.
                        That Delenn was watching him, that she thought a great destiny awaited him, etc. can be explained simply by considering that she knew Sinclair had Valen's (reincarnated, she thought) soul.
                        Then in Atonement she uses the revelation that it wasn't that Valen's soul had "reincarnated" in a human (that in itself already scandalous and kept quiet), but that the greatest leader of the Minbari was actually a human, as a bargaining chip.
                        Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                        James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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                        • #27
                          Surely it comes down to where Delenn's own beliefs changed.

                          During ItB, she would have no reason to believe any differently to the other Minbari, i.e. that Minbari souls are reborn in each subsequent generation. The reaction of the triluminary to humans in general convinced the Minbari present that their souls were being reborn in humans (rather than Minbari), and the response to Sinclair convinced them that he specifically carried the soul of Valen.

                          Her reaction to Sinclair's arrival in SoulHunter would be consistent with that belief as the vessel would presumably be expected to act in accordance with the character of the soul it bear. Her experience in the temple convinced her that Valen would always look out for his "children", so Sinclair would be expected to do likewise.

                          Her reaction to receiving the letter in WWE indicates to me that this is the point at which she understands that this is not the case ... that Sinclair is literally Valen, and not just the vessel of his reborn soul. She may have suspected this beforehand, but receiving a 900 year old letter written by someone you know right now is pretty convincing.

                          The time circle created for Sinclair is quite nifty really. Valen leaves behind the technology for future Minbari to test humans and find his DNA (effectively), Sinclair is then plucked out of the sky, tested and found to carry "Valen's soul" and put into the position whereby he can eventually go back in time and become Valen.

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