When did Delenn KNOW Sinclair was Valen?

[DeMonk]

I've been watching the show (again) and I still haven't figured out when exactly Delenn knew that commander Sinclair was Valen?

After the letter she had in War Without End or did she already know in Soulhunter when she remarked: I knew you would come.?

[vacantlook]

I think Delenn's "I knew you would come" statement in Soul Hunter came from her then belief that Sinclair possessed Valen's soul, and that having his soul would cause him to save her. So I guess that would leave her realizing that Sinclair was/would become Valen sometime during War Without End.

[Jan]

It never occurred to me that "I knew you would come" stemmed from anything other than Delenn's faith that her friend Jeffrey Sinclair would leave no stone unturned in finding her.

While she always seemed aware that Sinclair was a 'true seeker' which probably left her unsurprised that he turned out to be destined to become Valen, I don't think she knew for sure until she got his note from the past.

Jan

[babylonlurker]

I think she might have suspected it when he became a Ranger on Minbar, but she could not *know* it until she received the letter

[WorkerCaste]

Well, it seemed that they knew he had gotten a "great" Minbari soul from the time of the Battle of the Line. Probably the next step after that might be believing that he did, in fact, have Valen's soul reincarnated. I don't think things fell into place with regard to him actually being Valen until she saw the historical record of B4, and I can't remember in War Without End when she said that was.

[Joe Nazzaro]

I think it's safe to assume that Delenn knew from quite early on. If you assume that she knew during 'The Gathering,' it adds a somewhat different dimension to the pilot, particularly the somewhat innocuous scene introducing Kosh to the rest of the ambassadors; look at Delenn's reaction and you may see it in a different way now.

[Jan]

The thing is, though, Lennier said that the trilumiary glowed for humans besides Sinclair so all the Minbari knew was that Minbari souls were being reborn in whole or in part into Humans. That's why the Triluminary glowed for Delenn, because she had Human DNA.

Jan

[vacantlook]

I guess I've always assumed that the triluminary glowed more brightly for Sinclair than it did for the other humans and that that's why the Minbari believed he had the soul of Valen specifically whereas the other humans just had miscellaneous other Minbari souls.

[Jan]

Has anybody read "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" recently? As I recall it was determined that Sinclair become 'Entil'Zha' because of prophecy but I don't recall exactly how they determined it was him specifically.

Jan

[RMcD]

Delenn says in In the Beginning after scanning Sinclair that he has 'a Minbari soul. And not just any soul. The soul of Valen.' That sounds pretty specific to me, so I'm guessing that she knew from that moment.

[JoeD80]

The thing is, though, Lennier said that the trilumiary glowed for humans besides Sinclair so all the Minbari knew was that Minbari souls were being reborn in whole or in part into Humans. That's why the Triluminary glowed for Delenn, because she had Human DNA.

Jan

He was also leaving information out. In "Atonement" in the 4th season they mention that the triluminary was set for Sinclair's DNA specifically.

Sinclair was also commander of Babylon 5 for the specific reason that the Minbari wanted him there e.g. it gave them an easy way to have Delenn keep an eye on him without seeming suspicious. I think it's in "Signs and Portents" that Garibaldi mentions to Sinclair that lots of people wanted the Babylon 5 job but they were all rejected by the Minbari until the list of potential commanders came all the way down to Sinclair.

It never occurred to me that "I knew you would come" stemmed from anything other than Delenn's faith that her friend Jeffrey Sinclair would leave no stone unturned in finding her.

I don't know which episode, but there was a story Delenn told about being in temple and then seeing Valen and saying "I knew you would come" -- jms mentions in the script books somewhere that the line in Soul Hunter was meant to echo this story told in the later episode to link the Valen aspect.

Also from a jms note 1/14/1998 it is apparent that the Grey Council at least knew in general that Sinclair was Valen (referencing the order to kill Sinclair in "And the Sky Full of Stars"):

Because if the word about the Sinclair/Valen/soul issue got out before their
people could be prepared, it could rip Minbari society apart...and since the
Minbari also believe in reincarnation, better to "recycle" Valen's soul than
see the world he cared so much about torn asunder

[vacantlook]

I don't know which episode, but there was a story Delenn told about being in temple and then seeing Valen and saying "I knew you would come" -- jms mentions in the script books somewhere that the line in Soul Hunter was meant to echo this story told in the later episode to link the Valen aspect.

Delenn recounts her being lost and taking shelter in the temple as a kid during the episode Confessions And Lamentations. I don't think she specifically names the figure that came to her in the temple as being Valen, but she does say he made some comment about her being safe "in his house".

I thought I too had read jms having said that Delenn's Soul Hunter "I knew you would come" comment was a reflection on her having been lost and going to the temple as a child, but I couldn't remember where I had read it.

[JoeD80]

I thought I too had read jms having said that Delenn's Soul Hunter "I knew you would come" comment was a reflection on her having been lost and going to the temple as a child, but I couldn't remember where I had read it.

I found the quote in the archives. I guess it wasn't in the script books, at least not that I can find. Here is the note in question however

jms 6/11/1997

What Delenn says, if we all go back to the episode in question,
that a Minbari appeared to her, when she was a child lost in the city
and wandered into the temple; a vision, telling her that "I will not
allow harm to come to my little ones here in my great house." (Note:
"my little ones" being a coy bit of foreshadowing to her being a child
of Valen, but never mind that for now.)

Obviously there were many drawings and pictures and records of
Valen, but most were destroyed in the Great War. And those that
survived have been, over a thousand years, idealized and distorted by
whichever caste is currently claiming him as theirs. (Valen refused to
belong to any one caste.)

Which, btw, is also what Delenn referred to in season one, when
she was lost and in fear of death, and she looked to Sinclair with
reverence and said, "I knew you would come for me."

[DeMonk]

If the Minbari suspected Sinclair was Valen, why did one member of the Grey Council tell Delenn that he would have to be killed if he found out what had happened during those hours he was "out" at the Battle of the Line?
Wouldn't that be like shooting themselves in the foot since his bringing Babylon 4 was crucial for their defeat of the Shadows a thousand years ago?
Shouldn't they have been protecting him instead, no matter what the cost?

[WorkerCaste]

If the Minbari suspected Sinclair was Valen, why did one member of the Grey Council tell Delenn that he would have to be killed if he found out what had happened during those hours he was "out" at the Battle of the Line?
Wouldn't that be like shooting themselves in the foot since his bringing Babylon 4 was crucial for their defeat of the Shadows a thousand years ago?
Shouldn't they have been protecting him instead, no matter what the cost?

That's exactly why I think they had identified Valen's soul in sinclair, but not the fact that Sinclair was Valen. As the quote posted by JoeD80 (JMS 1/14/1998) points out, they were willing to possibly kill him since the soul would be reborn into another body.