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  • #46
    Originally posted by Andrew_Swallow View Post
    I suspect that Delenn rescuing Babylon 5 and Sheridan from the Earthforce attack may be the twist.

    Normally the hero rescues the girl from the aliens, not the reverse.
    Andrew...he so silly!

    Let us all rememeber, this statement by JMS was made in 92, which was very early on and there was no Sheridan then. In fact, where would this fall in the timeline for JMS?

    The pilot had aired, correct? But the series had or hadn't actually started yet? Or they had started production but not aired or...? Where did this statment fall exactly?

    CE
    Anthony Flessas
    Writer/Producer/Director,
    SP Pictures


    I have no avatar! I walk in mystery and need nothing to represent who and what I am!

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    • #47
      Originally posted by colonyearth View Post
      The pilot had aired, correct? But the series had or hadn't actually started yet? Or they had started production but not aired or...? Where did this statment fall exactly?
      The Lurker's Guide lists the original broadcast date of "The Gathering" as being Feb 22, 1993. The date of the jms post of reference for this thread is as 1/1/1992. I don't know where that puts the writing of the post in reference to production, but I would imagine that it's at least the very early stages if not before production began.

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      • #48
        From a JMS post dated 1/19/1992, it would appear the statement was slightly before production:

        Okay, for those interested, I now have a more specific schedule to work
        from, based on our latest discussions with all parties.

        I finish my revisions on the 2-hour screenplay (entitled "The Gathering,"
        for those interested) by February 1, about two weeks, give or take. Then two
        weeks to get in the notes from Warners. Two more weeks to attend to whatever
        suggestions they may have. The screenplay is then locked down by March 1st.

        We go into design and casting March 1st. Production design, art
        design/directing and tech teams begin work. We begin checking out the
        director we're going to use. First part of April we begin blueprinting of
        sets and construction.

        We finalize cast and director by the end of May, and begin shooting June
        1. We finish shooting June 26th. We go into editing and post production, and
        come out with the finished film by early or middle October, and deliver to
        Warners and the stations. (By the first part of October we also deliver a
        three-minute trailer to the stations for use in promoting B5.)

        BABYLON 5: The Gathering then airs the third week in November, during
        sweeps. Probably on a Tuesday night.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by grumbler View Post
          I think the "thing that had never been done before" was to destroy B5 in season 3 or 4. We had foreshadowings of that with the flash-forward in time by Sinclair, and the prophesy of Lady Ladira. The "older Sinclair's" scar in Babylon Squared fits with this idea, also. I think maybe the "Shadow warriers" in The Long Dark were remnants of the idea on how to introduce the guys who were going to take out Garibaldi and the station.

          That would have been something, wouldn't it? I wonder if WB and PTEN would have let JMS get away with that, if that was the idea.
          Originally posted by colonyearth View Post
          Andrew...he so silly!

          Let us all rememeber, this statement by JMS was made in 92, which was very early on and there was no Sheridan then. In fact, where would this fall in the timeline for JMS?

          The pilot had aired, correct? But the series had or hadn't actually started yet? Or they had started production but not aired or...? Where did this statment fall exactly?

          CE
          Grumbler and Colony Earth are right on about this. Many here are making the mistake of thinking the show as delivered was anywhere close to the show JMS was thinking about in 1992. Sheridan was not planned as an overriding character. My bet and (recalling dimly from some JMS posts) is that Sheridan was going to be introduced in Season 3/4 and carry a much bigger version of the General Hague arc (may still have been called Hague). Much of what Sheridan did with the Shadows/Delenn was going to be Sinclair. Recall the red fruit in "parliament of dreams" and Catherine exploring, bumping into first ones and thus she being the one to waken the shadows.

          The Sinclair arc may have ended at Season 4 whereby after defeating the shadows/vorlons in this time, he takes the station back to do it again in the past and become Valen, thus leaving the earth civil war part of the show to be carried on by 'Sheridan'
          Last edited by Macbeth; 12-06-2007, 05:30 AM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by RMcD View Post
            That was Lennier's scar..
            http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-528...inclair%20scar


            From JMS:


            Sinclair was scarred during ranger training duties.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by colonyearth View Post
              Andrew...he so silly!

              Let us all rememeber, this statement by JMS was made in 92, which was very early on and there was no Sheridan then. In fact, where would this fall in the timeline for JMS?
              At that stage it is just a change in the name of the hero Delenn saves. Sinclair -> Sheridan.
              Andrew Swallow

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Macbeth View Post
                Grumbler and Colony Earth are right on about this. Many here are making the mistake of thinking the show as delivered was anywhere close to the show JMS was thinking about in 1992.
                From jms post 5/9/1995:

                Actually, no, believe or not the arc really hasn't changed much; it's
                gotten filled out a bit in places, but the direction hasn't altered. I
                had always had kind of a (?) in the thing as to how to transition clearly
                from Sinclair to the Shadows, because I needed some way to connect the
                stories, but having Sinclair have a hook to the shadows just strained
                credulity past the breaking point. Gradually I figured out a way to do
                that, and that (?) was filled. Other than that, no; it's going where it
                was always going.
                I imagine we will get a clearer picture of this once Volume 15 is published. I can't wait to read it!

                As for the Sakai stuff:

                Originally posted by Macbeth View Post
                Recall the red fruit in "parliament of dreams" and Catherine exploring, bumping into first ones and thus she being the one to waken the shadows.
                This has been stated as not being true at various points by jms. From a jms post 2/1/1997 (emphasis mine):

                Sinclair was never intended to go to Z'ha'dum.

                And it wouldn't have worked for Sakai to be the one who awoke
                the shadows and "died" at Z'ha'dum because *they were already awake* in
                the first season.
                People who try to lay the one line atop the other
                tend to forget this. We also get Garibaldi's mention of crawling out
                of the Martian desert in the very first episode...which tied into the
                whole Messages From Earth thread, putting the shadows at work for at
                least 2-3 years.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by JoeD80 View Post
                  This has been stated as not being true at various points by jms. From a jms post 2/1/1997 (emphasis mine):

                  Sinclair was never intended to go to Z'ha'dum.

                  And it wouldn't have worked for Sakai to be the one who awoke
                  the shadows and "died" at Z'ha'dum because *they were already awake* in
                  the first season.
                  People who try to lay the one line atop the other
                  tend to forget this. We also get Garibaldi's mention of crawling out
                  of the Martian desert in the very first episode...which tied into the
                  whole Messages From Earth thread, putting the shadows at work for at
                  least 2-3 years.
                  To further quote the same point.

                  jms on 3/31/1998

                  No, for one simple reason.

                  The Shadows were already on the loose in Season 1, if we recall correctly. Mr.
                  Morden was running around, and the Shadows were cleaning Lord Kiro's clock and
                  restoring the Eye to Londo.

                  The mission to Z'ha'dum had already taken place, and the shadows were already
                  on the move...so the scenario you suggest was simply not possible.
                  jms on 12/19/1997

                  BTW, the one big reason that Sakai could not have filled Anna Sheridan's role
                  in awakening the shadows...and this is the one thing that everyone who
                  advocates this theory tends to forget...is that they were *already up and
                  awake* in the first season, as we saw in "Signs and Portents." They were up,
                  around, and had had some time to build stuff up, reclaim some of their ships,
                  and in other ways get organized and develop their contacts.

                  Also, Morden was already working for them.
                  jms on 7/20/1995

                  Negative. That was never intended. Sakai would not have had this
                  encounter with the shadows. And remember, we *saw them* in year one, so they
                  were already out, about and awake. It's not just a matter of transposing
                  names.
                  On the possibility of a Sinclair/Delenn romance:

                  jms on 4/11/1996

                  ... Actually, the relationship with Sinclair and Delenn wasn't
                  designed to be romantic; he was involved with Sakai, and would've
                  stayed that way for the most part. The relationship you saw is not
                  quite what you're thinking; there is a closeness, but not based on
                  romantic feelings....

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                  • #54
                    Great work Vacantlook digging up those JMS posts. It sure helps clarify and if I had thought about it longer - they all make perfect sense.

                    Having said that, the 1992 plot, or even the 1995 plot (pre O'Hare leaving and Boxleitner joining) I think was still pretty different on the surface from what was eventually delivered. Not better, not worse simply different. We know that JMS is a master of switching and overlaying arcs on characters to get the story told (Lyta-Talia-Lyta) so while being different it may not be hugely so from a fundamental plot arc standpoint, but taking it to the level of an individual scene or character I still think is likely a mistake because it may have been a different character originally.

                    One thing we do know is that the original plan was not for O'Hare/Sinclair to effectively disappear after season one and that externality moved some pretty big pieces around.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by [email protected]
                      I've been trying to come up with a very off-beat plot turn to pull in
                      seasons 3 or 4 (assuming we ever GET that far, again, I'm working all this out
                      in advance and hoping for the best), and this morning I came up with something
                      SO neat, SO unusual, I practically slipped in the shower. It's something that
                      has never, EVER been done in an SF series involving a major character. And
                      boy, will this have major ramifications! Too bad I have to wait so long to
                      pull it off.
                      Maybe he literally meant "the Major" Character: showing the face of Major Atumbe!!!
                      Now that would have been a surprising twist!


                      Seriously:
                      It was a major character declaring independence from Earth... and it did have many ramifications.
                      And really, did (would) you ever see that in another SF TV show?

                      I think that was the twist.

                      The only other possibility I think plausible would be Sinclair leaving around S3-S4 to become Valen, and Sheridan taking over. A second in command becoming the new leader is an unusual thing (replacing Capt. Pike does not count!). However, the only major ramification of that was that the war 1,000 years ago was won and not lost.

                      I think it was the independence from Earth, not only a great twist, the three-parter where Sheridan declares B5 independent and the aliens help him against Earth capturing the station is one of the finest dramatic moments in SF TV history.
                      Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                      James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Capt.Montoya View Post
                        Maybe he literally meant "the Major" Character: showing the face of Major Atumbe!!!
                        Now that would have been a surprising twist!
                        And here I thought it was going to be more screen time for the Zarg.
                        ---
                        Co-host of The Second Time Around podcast
                        www.benedictfamily.org/podcast

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Macbeth View Post
                          Great work Vacantlook digging up those JMS posts.
                          Reading the one that JoeD80 posted enticed me to see what else jms had posted about Sakai over the years. So, I say blame him.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Capt.Montoya View Post
                            Seriously:
                            It was a major character declaring independence from Earth... and it did have many ramifications.
                            And really, did (would) you ever see that in another SF TV show?

                            I think that was the twist.
                            For a SF TV show it is unusual but the policeman catching the bad guy whilst he is suspended is routine.

                            Admiral Kirk went against Star Fleet in "The Search for Spock"
                            http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088170
                            Andrew Swallow

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Dipper View Post
                              According to "To dream in the city of sorrows" Sinclair got that scar when battling against shadow fighters near the time-distortion-weird-thingy. IIRC the scar's appearance was described almost exactly as it appears in the show.

                              ip
                              True, but this is much later. As is the new idea tha there was a "future that did not happen" like Ivanova's broadcast from the death-throes of B5 in WWE. In both cases, they could easily have been things added to cover the "future that did not happen" in the sense of the show's original plan.

                              As pointed out above, this will be revealed in Volume 15 of the script books, now (hopefully) not far off.
                              I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by SpanishFan View Post
                                I'm with Morden in this (come to think about it, that sounds kinda frightening, doesn't it?).
                                I think he was refering to Delenn crossing genders.
                                Except the original reference mentioned season 3/season 4, and Delenn was planned all long to cross gender/morph.
                                "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

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