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So, back in 1992...

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  • #31
    In 1992 though Sinclair was still planned to be on the show until the end, so how would that affect season 3?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Jan View Post
      I can't think of any reason not to ask him. Anybody's free to post to the newsgroup and even if JMS doesn't chime in, there may well be somebody over there who might know the answer. If you're not up on posting to newsgroups, I've put some information on that in the FAQ.

      I tend to agree with Susitcha, though. The idea of Sinclair being the closed circle is pretty major and radically different. Every other time travel story I've ever read usually concentrates on *not* changing history whereas Sinclair becoming Valen seems to presuppose that there's a version of history that Sinclair changed by going back and becoming Valen.

      I think that's pretty cool but I try not to think about it too deeply because time travel generally gives me a headache.

      Jan
      Wasnt the original idea to have that delt with at the very end of the series though? Maybe if Sinclair had stayed after season 1 they could have started to drop more hints during season 3-4?

      When was Talia originaly planned to "turn"? To have someone not just betray the good guys but actively become evil would have been pretty unqiue in 1992.
      Who are you?
      What do you want?
      What is the average inflight speed of an unladened swallow?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by moreorless View Post
        When was Talia originaly planned to "turn"? To have someone not just betray the good guys but actively become evil would have been pretty unqiue in 1992.
        Talia was never planned to turn in the original plan, at least not in 1992. Takashima would have been the traitor/"Control" personality, and Lyta would be the resident telepath. Talias character wasn't created until after the pilot, when Pat Tallmann didn't want to come back as Lyta at first. The "Control"-thread was later shifted to her when Andrea Thompson wanted to leave the show.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Morden View Post
          Talia was never planned to turn in the original plan, at least not in 1992. Takashima would have been the traitor/"Control" personality, and Lyta would be the resident telepath. Talias character wasn't created until after the pilot, when Pat Tallmann didn't want to come back as Lyta at first. The "Control"-thread was later shifted to her when Andrea Thompson wanted to leave the show.
          For some reason I was thinking this comment came between the pilot and the first season. You could say the same for Takashima although I guess the plan was for her to turn before the third/fourth seasons.

          Kosh's death seems less likey to me because the introduction of a mentor character normally implies that such a character will either step aside or die. I spose the original idea could have been for that to be when the Shadows/Vorlons left. Having Kosh die certainly made it easier for the Vorlon's to become badguys on the same level as the shadows which would fit in with "major ramifications".
          Who are you?
          What do you want?
          What is the average inflight speed of an unladened swallow?

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          • #35
            In all this discussion... has anyone thought that the thing JMS could be talking about would be Sheridan declairing independence of B5 itself? Or the fact they begin the war against earth? this is a very unusual turning point in season 3 and something you might have thought would either have been resolved in another way or within an episode.

            This event is also something you dont see in the sci-fi world. fights against other people, yes, but to have a majority of the human race turn their backs on earth is not something we are used to seeing. This also caused many ramifications. we're used to seeing the future as humans, in general, getting along with each other and not have too many issues government-wise.

            To me, the Garabaldi storyline was nothing more than an extended version of the Talia/Lyta story line, so I can't see how this is "unusual" in the sense that betrayl happens all the time in a sci-fi series, and the repercussions mainly affected him and were resolved rather quickly provided a telepath copied and pasted the memories into a person to prove his story being true.
            Last edited by Laiden; 12-03-2007, 11:45 PM.
            "It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain. If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world, because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past." -- G'Kar in Babylon 5:"In the Beginning"

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            • #36
              I guess it's either the original Takashima story or Sheridan's death on Zahadoom

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Laiden View Post
                In all this discussion... has anyone thought that the thing JMS could be talking about would be Sheridan declairing independence of B5 itself? Or the fact they begin the war against earth? this is a very unusual turning point in season 3 and something you might have thought would either have been resolved in another way or within an episode.

                This event is also something you dont see in the sci-fi world. fights against other people, yes, but to have a majority of the human race turn their backs on earth is not something we are used to seeing. This also caused many ramifications. we're used to seeing the future as humans, in general, getting along with each other and not have too many issues government-wise.
                Hmm, I never even considered that one. I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. It definitely fits the timing that the 1992 jms post references.

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                • #38
                  Well okay, "involving a major character" could hint at Sheridan's decision and announcement to break away from earth, and I remember some other JMS statements regarding the magnitude of this event.
                  But somehow I can't help myself, the way the post we are all discussing right now sounds to me more as if something unusual happens to a major character.

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                  • #39
                    I think the "thing that had never been done before" was to destroy B5 in season 3 or 4. We had foreshadowings of that with the flash-forward in time by Sinclair, and the prophesy of Lady Ladira. The "older Sinclair's" scar in Babylon Squared fits with this idea, also. I think maybe the "Shadow warriers" in The Long Dark were remnants of the idea on how to introduce the guys who were going to take out Garibaldi and the station.

                    That would have been something, wouldn't it? I wonder if WB and PTEN would have let JMS get away with that, if that was the idea.
                    I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by grumbler View Post
                      I think the "thing that had never been done before" was to destroy B5 in season 3 or 4. We had foreshadowings of that with the flash-forward in time by Sinclair, and the prophesy of Lady Ladira. The "older Sinclair's" scar in Babylon Squared fits with this idea, also. I think maybe the "Shadow warriers" in The Long Dark were remnants of the idea on how to introduce the guys who were going to take out Garibaldi and the station.

                      That would have been something, wouldn't it? I wonder if WB and PTEN would have let JMS get away with that, if that was the idea.
                      Maybe. That could fit with an abandoned idea alluded to in one of the scriptbooks: if my memory serves, jms intimated that he considered having B5 be destroyed and time pass until B4 popped out 20 years in the future to replace it (instead of having B4 go back in time as actually done).

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by vacantlook View Post
                        Maybe. That could fit with an abandoned idea alluded to in one of the scriptbooks: if my memory serves, jms intimated that he considered having B5 be destroyed and time pass until B4 popped out 20 years in the future to replace it (instead of having B4 go back in time as actually done).
                        The way I understood the scriptbook, I was thinking the station exploding and being replaced was more of a way to end the show if it was canceled in Season 3, although I guess we will know more about this aspect once we get Volume 15:

                        (From Volume 2 "Babylon Squared" Scriptbook, emphasis mine):

                        "And in fact, in one iteration of the five-year arc, depending on what
                        actors we did or didn't have, what changes might or might not have
                        afflicted the series during production, or in the event of a sudden
                        cancellation in the third season
                        , our characters were indeed taking
                        the station forward in time..."

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by grumbler View Post
                          The "older Sinclair's" scar in Babylon Squared fits with this idea, also.
                          According to "To dream in the city of sorrows" Sinclair got that scar when battling against shadow fighters near the time-distortion-weird-thingy. IIRC the scar's appearance was described almost exactly as it appears in the show.

                          ip

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Dipper View Post
                            According to "To dream in the city of sorrows" Sinclair got that scar when battling against shadow fighters near the time-distortion-weird-thingy. IIRC the scar's appearance was described almost exactly as it appears in the show.

                            ip
                            I thought JMS said he got the scar in ranger training? Or am I getting confused?

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                            • #44
                              That was Lennier's scar..

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                              • #45
                                I suspect that Delenn rescuing Babylon 5 and Sheridan from the Earthforce attack may be the twist.

                                Normally the hero rescues the girl from the aliens, not the reverse.
                                Andrew Swallow

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