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So, back in 1992...

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  • #16
    Coupla guesses

    Sinclair becoming Valen and leaving the show - or the show following him into the past

    Sinclair marrying Delenn and having a kid

    the Vorlons turning out to be the bad guys

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    • #17
      I want to quote something JMS said during a certain interview. This was published in the June-2000-issue of the magazine "CINEFANTASTIQUE", which was promoted as an extensive "special double-issue" and provides an 85-pages long article about B5, which they called "the greatest Scifi-epic ever filmed" on their title.

      Concerning the episode "Interludes and Examinations", I can find the following lines:

      On the subject of killing the Vorlon Ambassador Kosh, Straczynski noted, "If ever you've written a novel you kind of know where you want to go and what the high points that you want to hit, but you have to be open to changes.
      [...]
      ... 'Interludes and Examinations' [...] took a completely different turn than I had expected going in.
      [...]
      [Killing Kosh] was a major event which I hadn't planned anywhere in the Bible, but it [...] made sense."


      So, okay, it couldn't be Kosh to what JMS was referring in 1992.
      My guess would still be the Garibaldi-plot, but I have to acknowledge that there are much similarities to the Takashima/Talia/Control-topic so it could be said that it wasn't too unusual.

      One thing nobody has mentioned before could be the stim-addiction of a major character (this thread is already hinted at with Dr. Kyle, and was later transferred to Franklin). This is unusual for a major character in a scifi-show, isn't it?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Jan View Post
        And finally, anybody else think this might be an early description of Kosh's ship?
        Organic ship. Visitor is only extension of
        ship's intelligence.
        Jan

        Going by the visitor bit it could be the Soul Hunter.

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        • #19
          By the way, another theory could be Delenn's metamorphosis, even more stikingly unusual as it was planned as including a switch of gender, if I recall correctly (it wasn't until the actual filming of "The Gathering" until it was decided that Delenn should be a female character from the beginning because the male voiceover didn't work).

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          • #20
            I'v not read the script books but the impression I'v always had is that the larger story(shadows, vorlons, earth, valen) was less open to change than the personal stories of the characters.

            The Garibaldi betray seems like the most obvious candidate to me aswell, would have been fairly new in 92 and it isnt something thats essential for the larger plot. I'v aways thought that the Franklin/Marcus partnership on mars seemed a little thrown together(although it worked well in the end IMHO) so perhaps the original idea was to have Garibaldi based there during season 4-5? He could have delt with the resistant and uncovered Edgars plot without being a trator.
            Who are you?
            What do you want?
            What is the average inflight speed of an unladened swallow?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Morden View Post
              [Killing Kosh] was a major event which I hadn't planned anywhere in the Bible, but it [...] made sense."[/I]

              So, okay, it couldn't be Kosh to what JMS was referring in 1992.
              Can't argue with that! Incidentally, this is the JMS post I had in mind:

              Yes, I think Kosh sort of "hit the wall" when he saw that Sheridan wasn't
              going to go away; I think finally he was ashamed, and recognized his fear,
              and in a sense the air went out of him, and he reconciled himself to what
              had to be.

              You're right about the mentor; sooner or later, the mentor has to step
              aside (or fall by the wayside) for the others to grow into the hero's
              journey. Originally this was slated to happen a bit later...I think, on
              some level, I was reluctant to do it, because to write this kind of stuff
              you have to *feel* it yourself, and I think I was avoiding that as much as
              Kosh was avoiding his fate. I didn't want to go through writing that. So
              I kept putting it off. I knew it *had* to be done...but not yet....

              And that's when, for lack of a better explanation, Kosh stepped up and
              began to pull me in that direction in the script. It was time. His
              passing shouldn't be frittered away or minimized; it should happen at the
              right moment, and this was that moment. It's almost impossible to
              describe this to a non-writer, but the character, this fictional
              construct, was simply determined to have his way, and that was the end of
              it. I kept trying to dance away in the script, to go back into safer
              waters...but each time was pulled back in this direction, until finally I
              had to admit that yes, this was the right time, and the right way, to do
              this.

              And Kosh fell.

              But what finally convinced me was the realization that this was not only
              right for now, but right for *later*...though you won't know what that
              means for a while yet.


              jms

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              • #22
                It might have been when Londa nuked his own planet to get rid of the Shadows?

                or when Joe himself blew up Bablylon 5?

                or when Garibaldi repeatedly fell victim to alcohol? People have had problems with alcohol in the past, but how often has it happened repeatedly?

                or Markus draining his lifeforce to death to save Ivonova?

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                • #23
                  Or Sheridan killing evil Kosh II. I suspect the Vorlon was always going to be killed by the humans. Having the Shadows kill Kosh I solved a lot of moral problems with what would have been an act of betrayal by Sheridan and Lyta.
                  Andrew Swallow

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                  • #24
                    Why do I get the same feeling looking at that quote as I get from reading the hand-written note next to Fermat's Last Theorem?




                    Is there some reason not to ask JMS to what he was referring? If it's something that happened, I'd imagine he'd say. If it wasn't, he would either a.) not tell us because it's something he might use later, b.) not tell us because it would involve going into some studio dispute that he doesn't want to disclose or c.) tell us what he planned and perhaps what led to it not happening.

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                    • #25
                      I suspect 15 years on there's a pretty good chance he simply won't remember

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RMcD View Post
                        I suspect 15 years on there's a pretty good chance he simply won't remember
                        I guess it depends how good an idea it was

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                        • #27
                          I'm with Morden in this (come to think about it, that sounds kinda frightening, doesn't it?).
                          I think he was refering to Delenn crossing genders.
                          Bravery is simply apathy with delusions of grandeur (Emperor Mollari II)

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by SpanishFan View Post
                            I'm with Morden in this (come to think about it, that sounds kinda frightening, doesn't it?).
                            I think he was refering to Delenn crossing genders.
                            Possibly, but would that tie in with it happening in season 3-4? I thought the Delenn transformation was always going to happen earlier than that?
                            My thought was the whole Sinclair Valen thing. I mean making a main character the central figure in a centuries old religion? I think is fairly major.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SpanishFan View Post
                              I'm with Morden in this (come to think about it, that sounds kinda frightening, doesn't it?).
                              What do you want?

                              BTW, reading through old JMS posts, I get the feeling that our Great Maker really liked this "I had an idea under the shower"-speech. In the article I mentioned above, he really states that he got the entire B5-idea during this particular activity...

                              Thinking about the fact that he had his best ideas this way, I really would like to know why he stopped taking showers when writing LotR...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by TurkishZath View Post
                                Is there some reason not to ask JMS to what he was referring? If it's something that happened, I'd imagine he'd say. If it wasn't, he would either a.) not tell us because it's something he might use later, b.) not tell us because it would involve going into some studio dispute that he doesn't want to disclose or c.) tell us what he planned and perhaps what led to it not happening.
                                I can't think of any reason not to ask him. Anybody's free to post to the newsgroup and even if JMS doesn't chime in, there may well be somebody over there who might know the answer. If you're not up on posting to newsgroups, I've put some information on that in the FAQ.

                                I tend to agree with Susitcha, though. The idea of Sinclair being the closed circle is pretty major and radically different. Every other time travel story I've ever read usually concentrates on *not* changing history whereas Sinclair becoming Valen seems to presuppose that there's a version of history that Sinclair changed by going back and becoming Valen.

                                I think that's pretty cool but I try not to think about it too deeply because time travel generally gives me a headache.

                                Jan
                                "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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