Sherridans fate - a discusion

[glindros]

When (good) Kosh left Sheridan to fight (bad) Kosh, Delenn and Lorien where watching and had a little natter that went, and I quote

Delenn : ItÆs Kosh. . . . . . . Kosh was inside him.
Lorien : Yes, the last of Kosh, and some of him and some of me.

The important words there are, last of Kosh, referring to what was disappearing out through the hull.

One other bit is season 5. Lyta is getting nasty and points out to zak something about not being able to arrest someone who has been touched by the Vorlons. A gun then pops in through stage right with Sheridan attached to it who points out she is not the only one that was touched by the Vorlons.

I hear goldfish make reliable, if rather boring pets.

So you're saying Kosh was only in possession of Sheridan until the fight with Ulkesh?

[Triple F]

Well the script does seem to imply that. Though I'm sure someone will find somethig else.

Though one other hint might be in "day of the dead". Kosh sent Sheridan a message (from Lorien) through that girl visiting Lochley, about where to go when his time was up. Again implies there was no longer any direct link between them.

[glindros]

Well the script does seem to imply that. Though I'm sure someone will find somethig else.

Though one other hint might be in "day of the dead". Kosh sent Sheridan a message (from Lorien) through that girl visiting Lochley, about where to go when his time was up. Again implies there was no longer any direct link between them.

I was weighing your point, but then I too thought about Day of the Dead, and this line:

Morden: "Give a dog a bad name, and you can hang him with it. You shouldn't listen to everything Sheridan tells you.
Actually, I'm surprised he's not here tonight, since he died at Z'ha'dum. Is there any coffee here or not?"

[Jan]

That's no secret. Sheridan himself admitted it the first minute he was back on the station and again in 'Sleeping in Light'. People die and come back all the time today, though not as dramatically as on B5. Look at Abel Horn, he died, too, and was brought back to life.

My main issues with your theory are:

- While we've got instances of coming back after being dead, we don't have any other instances of somebody who's died and had their body animated by another entity on B5. Influence a living person, yes. Animate a dead person, no.

- We know that Vorlons can put a piece of themselves in another person (Lyta, for example). That's the same thing he did with Sheridan.

As for:

No human being would have survivived even the fall at Z'ha'Dum, but a Vorlon would, even a small piece.

That would seem to indicate that you think that there was nothing left of Sheridan's body and that Kosh took on his physical appearance as well. After all, it's not the fall that kills you, it's that sudden stop at the bottom. Again, we've never seen that before so there's no reason to assume it now.

My theory has always been that it was Z'ha'dum's atmosphere that killed Sheridan, not the fall. Remember, the atmosphere wasn't breathable for humans and the Shadows had to build the underground enclave for their human servants to live in. Lorien would have detected Sheridan's fall and caught him but he'd been in the Z'h'd atmosphere for several minutes even before jumping and might have been well on the way to asphyxiation by the time he jumped.

Jan

[grumbler]

My theory has always been that it was Z'ha'dum's atmosphere that killed Sheridan, not the fall. Remember, the atmosphere wasn't breathable for humans and the Shadows had to build the underground enclave for their human servants to live in. Lorien would have detected Sheridan's fall and caught him but he'd been in the Z'h'd atmosphere for several minutes even before jumping and might have been well on the way to asphyxiation by the time he jumped.

In this theory, when does Sheridan leave the enclosed (and breathable) air of the Shadow city and go outside? Air density would increase as he fell, due to gravity (the chasm was open to the breathable air in the city). I suppose you could argue that the breathable air all leaked into the outer atmosphere when the bombs went off, but that wouldn't happen fast enough to affect a falling object already far enough down to survive the blast. The blast would briefly accelerate Sheridan as it traveled down the chasm (and, here's an idea: it accelerated him fast enough that air friction killed him! )

What "killed" Sheridan was his decision to "let go" and let Lorien try to bring him back. The exact mechanism by which his body "died" is an interesting question, but one about which we have no evidence that I can see. Pretty much the last suspect, though, is lack of breathable air, IMO.

[Capt.Montoya]

I was weighing your point, but then I too thought about Day of the Dead, and this line:

Morden: "Give a dog a bad name, and you can hang him with it. You shouldn't listen to everything Sheridan tells you.
Actually, I'm surprised he's not here tonight, since he died at Z'ha'dum. Is there any coffee here or not?"

Well... for starters, this was Morden, who was trying quite hard to rattle Lennier, so this might have only been a way to upset him.
Also, this was not a JMS penned episode, so this might have been a little thing that slipped in and shouldn't be considered 100% canon.

Delenn did realize Sheridan was replaced, and went along with it. That is why she left him, so he could act freely without her around.

That contradicts what we saw on the series: that Delenn had to take care of the upcoming civil war on Minbar. She was partly responsible for it, she had to help solve it. That alone explains why she left.

As for Sheridan being different, as someone else pointed out: he let go of everything, clinged only to what was most important and relevant to him. That changed him, he stopped being distracted by other things and focused on what mattered.

Something else that your pet theory does not explain: why Kosheridan would kick the Vorlons out of the Galaxy if he was a Vorlon? Why would Kosh stop his belief that Humans and Minabri needed Vorlon guidance so suddenly?
Easier to explain the actions if it was Sheridan alone deciding that the young races would be better off without First Ones.

Why would Kosheridan care to free Earth from Santiago's dictatorship? A Vorlon (Kosh) might have just left Earth to burn and dedicate himself and the Rangers to the rest of the Galaxy. A human (Sheridan) would feel compelled to free his homeworld.

No human being would have survivived even the fall at Z'ha'Dum, but a Vorlon would, even a small piece.

If we modify what you say to "no human being alone" I agree with you. But it wasn't Sheridan alone, it was Sheridan with a piece of Kosh, and with the help of Lorien.
With that in mind I see no reason to asume that Sheridan died in his fall, he almost died (would have died without the piece of Kosh), Lorien caught him right before he died (and ensured he didn't die already), then Sheridan let himself go (that he died or not is debatable, IMO), and Lorien helped rebuild his body and bretahed new life into it (still with part of Kosh inside, maybe that helped).

[glindros]

Hi everybody,

I'm really having alot of fun discussing B5 with people so knowledgeble.

I guess my question comes down to once Kosh entered Sheridan was Sheridan fundamentally unaltered?

Post Za'ha'dum Sheridan seems like a different person to me. His comment to Lyta about being touched by a Vorlon echoes this statement. Notice he never had Orange Juice after he returned either.

While we might call what Kosh did to G'Kar manipulation, It seems John got a more intensive programing. Maybe that is what Kosh agreed to do when Sheridan said he wanted to be taught to fight Legends.

I guess it could have been Lorien who did something to Sheridan as well, but I'm still in the Vorlon camp.

Post Za'ha'dum Sheridan seems like a different person to me.

Thoughts anyone?

[Jan]

I'm really having alot of fun discussing B5 with people so knowledgeble.

<The entire Forum takes a bow>

I guess my question comes down to once Kosh entered Sheridan was Sheridan fundamentally unaltered?

Do we know exactly when Kosh entered Sheridan? My guess is 'Interludes and Examinations', the episode where Kosh communicated mind to mind with Sheridan.

Post Za'ha'dum Sheridan seems like a different person to me.

Exactly. Post Z'ha'dum. Not post Kosh's death. IMO, if Sheridan was different post Z'ha'dum, it was because Lorien had changed his point of view, from fleeing death to embracing life. Once he realized what he had to live for, his entire attitude changed.

Near death experiences have a tendency to do that. How many times have you heard it expressed that a person's whole outlook had changed after some traumatic event. It's just human nature, no need for alien influence.

I guess it could have been Lorien who did something to Sheridan as well, but I'm still in the Vorlon camp.

I think that Kosh and Lorien had recalled their duty to teach and guide the younger races. It was Ulkesh and the rest of the Vorlons, as well as the Shadows, who'd forgotten.

Post Za'ha'dum Sheridan seems like a different person to me.

And nine episodes occurred between his getting a piece of Kosh and coming back with a new attitude. I disagree that it was Kosh controlling Sheridan.

Thoughts anyone?

Hard to keep us from expressing those!

Jan

[vacantlook]

Do we know exactly when Kosh entered Sheridan? My guess is 'Interludes and Examinations', the episode where Kosh communicated mind to mind with Sheridan.

Could it have been much earlier than "Interludes and Examinations", instead being sometime before or during "All Alone In The Night", given Sheridan's whole dream sequence while on the Streib ship?

In the dream, Sheridan turns around...

...this time seeing Ambassador Kosh standing there. "Why are you here?" Sheridan asks him.

"We were never away," Kosh intones. "For the first time, your mind is quiet enough to hear me."

"Why am I here?"

"You have always been here," Kosh says...

...and Sheridan awakes....

And then later after being rescued from the Streib:

In the hallway outside, he turns around and sees Ambassador Kosh.

"You have always been here," Kosh tells him, and turns away.

To me, that whole "for the first time, your mind is quiet enough to hear me" makes me think that it's the part of himself that Kosh put in Sheridan talking to Sheridan.

[grumbler]

I agree with vacantlook. It would have been before AAitN. I think the whole sequence, for instance, in which he undergoes "training" from Kosh is really simply Sheridan being readied to take on a piece of Kosh. The "beauty in the darkness" concept fits this idea, I think.

That would also be another explanation for Kosh revealing himself to save Sheridan in The Fall of Night.