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Embracing the cycle...or If you've seen one Sheridan, you've seen them all...

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  • #16
    I kinda like the totally-unfounded hope I have that, at times, the Sheridan-analog was organizing the races against the Vorlons, with secret Shadow help. It musta happened at least once in the millions of years this cycle has played out, right?
    I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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    • #17
      Breaking the Cycle, or why I think the cycle contradicts a central point of B5

      I have to ask: where did Morden say that if you've seen one Sheridan you've seen them all?

      Depending on that it may have only been a swipe implying that John was predictable from knowing Anna Sheridan.

      Note that Morden only survived (and barely) because Galen (unwisely?) saved him. Not a major plot point if you want, but one that is made clear by the Technomage trilogy.

      Is it still possible that Morden didn't know that Sheridan had survived? Morden appears after the Z'ha'dum nuking in Centauri Prime, briefly, until Londo executes him. Morden may have not been informed (I haven't watched for a while, I may be wrong) neither by the Shadows nor by Mollari that Sheridan was back simply because it never came up or they didn't think he needed to know.
      I think it's unlikely that the Shadows would tell any of their minions about Lorien. "We're powerful, more than the Vorlons, we are of the very first races in the Galaxy, join us or suffer. Oh, by the way, in our planet we have a being that is more powerful than us whom we respect who was actually in existence before us and helped us along as he helped the Vorlons." In my opinion it doesn't help their case to let everyone know about Lorien.

      I'll have to confess that I'm not a fan of the Matrix and for me any theory that stems from it is tainted from the beginning...

      Still, I think Kevin is right: only Sheridan made it to Lorien. That breaks the analogy.

      There's something I remember that doesn't gell with Sheridan taking Lorien's place: in Sleeping in Light Lorien answers to Sheridan that he can't come back.

      The story of B5 is in great part about breaking the cycle, that in itself makes this speculation about the cycle starting again with Sheridan unlikely.

      Something else in the first post about the Vorlons embracing the cycle: they had no choice, once they decided that the Shadows had to be opposed directly they had to do it whenever the Shadows attacked.
      Now, who broke the rules first would be interesting to speculate (or even better: know) about...

      What seems certain to me is that the level of involvement by the Shadows and Vorlons had been increasing, and the story of B5 happens when that involvement reaches its maximum point. That's not a real cycle, but a progressive escalation, I'd call that a spiral if you insist to have a circular figure. Sheridan and Delenn's role and glory comes from finding a way to break that spiral. Had the Shadows and Vorlons continued there would have been very little left.

      The Shadows and Vorlons became sworn enemies, and Lorien saw that with the sorrow of a parent seeing his children fight. I don't think they were conspiring to create a leader to break the cycle and make them all irrelevant ("Now get the hell out of our galaxy!").

      Lorien was waiting for someone, that I can believe, waiting for someone that showed him that the younger races were ready to stand on their own and tell the Vorlons and the Shadows that.
      This is what the events of "Into the Fire" were about, this is what the Third Age of Mankind means.
      For Terrans and Minbari to start a cycle would mean that they didn't learn and weren't ready to take the place of guides for the younger races.

      The minions of the Shadows may have tried to start the cycle again, but it seems likely they were mostly defeated in the Drakh war (which liberated Centauri Prime too), this to me means that more than trying to take the role of the Shadows and their periodic conflict they were more interested in vengeance on those that made the Masters of the Drakh abandon them. Some opposition to the Interstellar Alliance remained (those that made Sol go nova in "Deconstruction of Falling Stars") and is still possible that they could try to establish a cycle of conflict to weed out the weaker younger races, but as far as I know nothing published or aired about B5 says that happened. Their opposition could have been more subtle or more constant.
      We don't know...

      So maybe there was a new cycle, I just don't think it goes along the lines of anything yet discussed.
      Capt.Montoya
      Ranger Captain
      Last edited by Capt.Montoya; 05-21-2004, 04:39 PM.
      Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
      James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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      • #18
        aaahhhh......*bows*

        I have definitely come to the right place....


        My ramblings have nothing to do with the Matrix... LytaaaarGh
        did mention how the 2 cycles are somewhat similar tho....

        "I have been here since the beginning", which was long before the Matrix was conceived.

        Morden stated "If you've seen one Sheridan you've seen them all" during his initial conversatioin with Molari on Centauri Prime. I'm assuming he was a little tipsy from pain killers or something.

        I Love this place.

        Duty calls....
        I had the dagger in my hand! And he has the indecency to start dying on his own.

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        • #19
          I always thought Morden was just being flippant, seeing how his association with a certain Sheridan (Anna) brought about such an explosive change in the way Morden & company did things.

          And on a side note, if Morden could survive a Whitestar full of nukes going off practically on his head, what's to say that Anna & Justin couldn't?

          Something to think about.

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          • #20
            The cycle concept is, of course, not completely accurate if you insist that all of the cycles were similar until Sheridan came along. It is clear that the other First Ones were involved in the early struggles between Chaos and Order, and it seems reasonable to assume that they became less interested as time went on, for 1,000 years ago the remaining ones besides the Vorlons and Shadows decided to bow out of the struggle.

            I have always held the (unfounded) opinion that it wasn't always the rest of the races against the Shadows, but that the Shadows were simply the flag-bearers of the chaotic principle of advancement, as the Vorlons were just the standard-bearers of the orderly principle. If I am right, then the fanaticism of the Shadows and Vorlons probably increased as their fellow-thinkers abandoned the struggle, until they became the archetypes we see in the series.

            I agree that what broke this cycle was the meeting of Sheridan and Lorien, and SheridanÆs realization that the Vorlons and Shadows had reached a the point of intellectual and moral bankruptcy, pursuing their struggle only because they could no longer see it as anything but the pivotal feature of their culture. The struggle ended because someone at last had the perspective needed to see beyond the facts of the war and see its true cause and nature.

            That the Humans and Minbari were to serve the same role in raising up the younger Younger races is made clear by Lorien, and so the idea that this was a sort of ônatural cycleö seems clear (it kinda smacks of the ôWhite manÆs Burdenö to me, but this is an epic tale and so you need epic themes).

            I have not seen any but the first Matrix movies, so I donÆt know how much the parellel holds, but there is no reason to restrict yourself to the Matrix for examples of these kinds of cyclic themes. In fact, JRR TolkienÆs first book, The Lost Road, finished in the mid-1930s, was exactly this type of tale, showing the cyclic themes of a father and son being reborn in age after age to accomplish a vital task of saving the remnants of a destroyed culture, reaching back to Atlantis (and thus got him interested in the Atlantean theme which he transmogrified into Numenor and eventually the Lord of the Rings).

            So, I think that the cyclic nature of the story in which B5 is just a part is undeniable, but I think it is the cyclic nature of history, and not the result of ôforcesö acting on anyone against their own will. In other words, the cycle is caused by ôpeopleö forgetting what they have learned, and thus repeating their mistakes when the same historical pressures inevitably recur. There doesnÆt need to be anything ômysticalö about it.

            I have concluded that Morden is not likely to have meant all the previous Sheridan-analogs when he said "you've seen one Sheridan, you've seen 'em all" because Morden, of course, had seen none of the other Sheridan-analogs, and he was a tactician, not a strategist. I could be wrong, though - his part of the explanation of the reasons behind the long series of wars on Z'Ha'Dum was pretty insightful.
            I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Jordan_Alexander
              And on a side note, if Morden could survive a Whitestar full of nukes going off practically on his head, what's to say that Anna & Justin couldn't?
              As Capt M points out above, Morden was saved by Galen on Z'Ha'Dum. Read the Technomage trilogy for the ways and hows.
              I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

              Comment

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