Embracing the cycle...or If you've seen one Sheridan, you've seen them all...

[cruiser]

Greetings,

Whilst reading the 'Who liberated Earth from President Clark' thread and particularly LytaaaarGh's post I came upon the idea for this thread. Her post contained the following:

A)Firslty During the war
i) People 'in the know'
ii) People not 'in the know'
B)Secondly After the War
i) Their side, your side and the Truth.

A)During the war the people in the know, like Clarke and some of the trusted commanders and possibly some psi-core would have known exactly what the whitestars were*. (and here i raise another point as to the validity of the comment that they belong to the Minbari.) They were Vorlon tech more than minbari tech... they were built bythe minbari but the permission to make them, i presume, was given/approved/supervised by the Vorlons (the Minbari would never have stolen the tech from the vorlons or made it without their permission). The whitestars were made under instruction from the Vorlons to fight in the Shadow war, they were also a gift to Sheriden (i think ???).
Thus the Minbari were only tools in the process of the Whitestars.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

*Also remember that they had used Shadow tech on thier destroyers so were in league with shadows. They did not want this as public knowledge, so they would not want to explain that whitestars used Vorlon tech.
Also remember that there was a complete external news block... the general public did not even know about the Shadow-Vorlon war.
_______________________________________________-
I think the Whitestars were a gift to Sheridan. In fact it seems to me that it is not only the Shadow's that have embraced the 1000 year cycle but the Vorlons as well.

Then there is Morden's rather tipsy comment, 'If you've seen one Sheridan, you've seen them all...'

I am relatively new here...but not to B5.
Any one game to discuss this. I may have personal views that may not match...and let me say I hate the term...canon. I await the opportunity to be enlightened.

[Kevin]

Re: Embracing the cycle...or If you've seen one Sheridan, you've seen them all...

Originally posted by cruiser
I think the Whitestars were a gift to Sheridan. In fact it seems to me that it is not only the Shadow's that have embraced the 1000 year cycle but the Vorlons as well.

As I said in another posting, the White Star Fleet was the army of the Rangers, which were under command of Delenn. However, Delenn did share and extend her command to Sheridan, so essentially they were under his command, although not "his", so to speak.

The Whitestar, however, was a gift, and was his, but that was only the first one.

[cruiser]

I want to apologize for not making clear the subject of this thread. It was late and way past my bedtime.

It seems that the Grey Council, Vorlons, Shadows, First Ones and Lorein were all dancing to the same beat, perhaps with Lorien as the music director(The Shadows and Vorlons ignored Lyta at Corrianna 6 until Lorien was in position onboard the Whitestar II).

They were all working together to achieve a goal. The initial goal being a member of the younger races being able to reach Lorien deep in the bowels of Zha'hadum(sp?). This person had to survive the Vorlons 'instruction' and tests. Then they had to make it past the hostile Shadows. And then they had to prove to Lorien that they truly deserved to be brought back to life. 'Your not embracing life, your fleeing death'(some quotes maeknot be purfikt, I'm at work/lunch) After Sheridan reached Lorien, 'The rules have changed'.

How many times has this scenario played out?
If you've seen one Sheridan, you've seen them all....

The Grey Council was attempting to shape the future.
'We stand between the Shadow and the Light'

I must add that my only exposure to B5 is from TV.

And just in case you didn't know Babylon 5 RULES!!!!

[LytaaaarGh]

yeah i see where your going with this i think
That, like the Matrix - there had been a Sheridan character for each 1000 yr cycle.
However, in this case it was only Sheridan who had managed to send the Vorlons and shadows on their way - thus breaking the cycle and allowing the 'younger races' to now develop and progress to another stage (and insinuating that he was not just another 'Sheridan character' but the 'One' )

There was one comment Morden made that i had never truly understood the meaning or implications of;
When he returns in 'The Day of The Dead' and Lennier tells him that Sheridan is still alive and did not die at Z'ha'dum he says 'That.... cannot be.'.
But he says it in such a way that suggests he is truly peturbed and shocked, that the fact that Sheridan is still alive has much deeper repercussions than just the mere fact.

Now it occurs to me that maybe the fact that he did actually die (maybe all the 'Sheridans of the past' had the same fate) but that Lorien chose *him* to bring back to life, meant that finally he (Lorien) had been suitably satisfied (after meeting and testing sheridan) with the progress of the younger races that he chose him as the 'one' and brought him back to life.

The Vorlons and shadows, themselves once younger races, would probably have gone through this exact procedure or some version of it, until they were deemed developed enough to face and challenge their *own* 'firstones' and force/allow them to leave the galaxy.
Thus knowing the cycle, they were more than likely waiting for this day - therefore one could speculate about a prophecy. A thousand 'Sheridans' would rise and fall, failing some part of the test - perhaps progressing each time further along the path, until Finally Mr John J Sheriedan came along and did everything right. Winning his prize of life and the oppurtunity to face the Vorlons and Shadows and prove to them the younger races were coming of age.

When Morden makes his comment about 'When you've seen one Sheridan you've seen them all' perhaps he is lumping him with these ones from the past (or maybe its just an idle comment about battle commanders )
But when he says 'But.... it cannot be' maybe, knowing the 'prophecies or procedures' of the Shadows, he realizes that if Sheridan is still alive, he must have passed the test, and that the firstones rule is at an end.
Something the Shadows and Vorlons had convinced themselves over the years, would never happen....

is that akin to what you mean?
p.s. thanks for making me think about that Morden comment again - it now makes more sense to me - even if my ideas are wrong (my brain is happy )

**Ok, just to say that this is all just running thought process - i also can't be sure of the exact quotes and was just delving around i my head which slung out these ideas***
Muchos gratias

[bulletproofmonk]

Heh...now THAT's an interesting way to look at it: Lorien's comment that "...you're the first one to make it this far..." is definitely an interesting one, to be sure (relating to a possible 1000 year cyclical plan). However, I'm also pretty sure that Morden does NOT say, "it ... cannot be." His line is closer to "I'm prophetic: not infallible."

...errr...or maybe not. Maybe I'm wrong. Oh, well, just doing my best in the interest of accuracy....

[snodman]

Morden is executed just as Sheridan, Lorien, all the league worlds and even all the other remaining first ones are fighting the final battle against the Shadows and Vorlons - weeks after Sheridan has returned from Za'Hadoum (and even more weeks since Sheridan fell and blew up the shadow capitol). So Morden almost certainly knew of Sheridan's survival. Since Morden himself survived getting nuked from impossibly close range he probably wouldn't be all that shocked that Sheridan survived his meeting with Lorien.

[grumbler]

Cruiser and LytaaaarGh,

VERY interesting speculation. I cannot comment on it yet, I have to go back and look at the episodes, but it makes a lot of sense - if you think "the details matter"!

I think this may be the most interesting new B5 speculation I have come across in years. It explains a bunch of stuff I had kinda dismissed as trivial dialogue. Well done.

[Jan]

Originally posted by bulletproofmonk
However, I'm also pretty sure that Morden does NOT say, "it ... cannot be." His line is closer to "I'm prophetic: not infallible."

...errr...or maybe not. Maybe I'm wrong. Oh, well, just doing my best in the interest of accuracy....

You're right:

LENNIER: No? Sheridan did not die at Z'ha'Dum. If you do not know the present, how can you claim to tell the future?

MORDEN: I'm talking about the future. So what if I'm not up on recent history. I'm prohetic, not infallible.

HTH,
Jan

[SciFiRanger]

This is realy a very interesting perspective. It may also explain why Lorien was able to return from the rim when he came to Corrianna 6 to retrieve Sheridan. Perhaps he will continue to funtion in this manner when the next cycle has come to pass.

[cruiser]

After viewing the complete series and pausing to reflect on it I realized that perhaps I was unable to see the forest for all the trees.

For instance, Lorien certainly saw thru Garibaldi's mental blocks but apparently did not warn Sheridan. I am now looking at Lorien as a Universal Professor of some sort and the Vorlons and Shadows as his lab assistants. Did Lorien allow the compromised Garibaldi to remain in situ`because he didn't want to contaminate another lab experiment.

Anybody know what happened to Delenn at the end(?) of her journey? Did she also return to the 'end of the beginning'?


Also I see many references to different books. Being an avid reader myself I am open to suggestions. errrr, for books to read I mean.

[LytaaaarGh]

"it ... cannot be." His line is closer to "I'm prophetic: not infallible."

ahhh very strange how the brain works... i haven't checked what im about to say either because all my stuff is in storage at the moment buuuuuuuuuuut.......

I think my idea of the 'no.... it cant be' comment actually comes from the original script by Neil Gaimen...

Anyone who has a copy of the script/book could you check?
I could be *totally* misrembering. It soooo strange as i can actually picture Morden saying the line, his expression tone and his cuffuzzled look :P.....
but now that i really think about it, i think it is a line that JMS rewrote, of which Neil Gaimen accepted as much better than his own "but... it cannot be'....

My brain obviously chose to reconstruct that part of the episode and substitute Gaiman's line.. HOW STRANGE!!!!
(at least i hope its his line and not a total reconstruction by me )

[bulletproofmonk]

It's all good. I can't remember if it was in the original script or not. Anyways, back to the whole circular argument thingee.

As Morden says to Sheridan in "Z'ha'dum" (from memory, so it may not be precise), "...whenever this starts, there's always someone who tries to organize the other races. You've done it: it's a commendable achievement." So is this the type of person that Lorien was always waiting for: the military leader who organizes the rest of the races against the Shadows (and that this particular leader would have to make the trek to Z'ha'dum to find him)?

...assuming, of course, that the circular Matrix theory holds true.

I dunno. Anyways, I have to get back to work.

[Kevin]

What kills the circular argument for me is that Lorien pretty clearly says that "You're the first to make it this far." Granted there have been others who have organized other races against the Shadows since the thing began 10,000 years ago, but for the most part I think it's safe to assume Lorien's been sitting on Z'Ha'Dum, mostly from the line where he says that that's why the Shadows return to Z'Ha'Dum... because he's there. And when he says that it took a long time for someone to find him, it must have been a *long* time, because for someone who's been around for Lorien, several hundred years probably dosen't seem all that long at all.

While there have been other leaders, Sheridan is very unique for being the one who actually discovered the truth and broke the cycle, beginning the Third Age. That's a very important event because, among other things, it should be considered drastically unique to anything else that has happened.

And whether or not Delenn joined Sinclair/Valen and Sheridan beyond the rim is an open question as JMS hasn't said anything about it, but I think it's fair to assume that she does. It's still terribly unclear how Sinclair goes away, but it's my hope we'll one day have an answer to that as well.

[Andrew_Swallow]

We know that the very old Delenn goes on a hunt for Sinclair/Valen.

[circularREASON]

for me the circular theory is ok.

The role seems to be circular ( ie leader ) however the person is not.

There could have been countless people who have filled the leaders role in the past - maybe every 1000 years when the shadows emerge from their sleep this test would take place to find the person who would break the cycle. As sebastian said...

''Looking for a man willing to die for all the wrong reasons.''

This kept going until Sheridan finally kicked some shadow buttski and jumped down the chasm at z'ha'dum.

When he jumped the first time it was the last act of a dying man - at kosh's urging.

And there at the bottom Lorien is waiting.

When Sheridan re-lived his fall in ''whatever happened to mr garibaldi?'' it was a leap of faith.

Before Lorien left and went beyond the rim maybe he was grooming Sheridan to take his place. And thus the cycle starts all over again.