Re-writing the canon?

[Capt.Montoya]

Killing Kosh speculation

I decided to check JMS words, a quick search for "kosh poison"
http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-5007 (05/1996)

Has the poising Kosh thread from the pilot ever been completely
> addressed? any answers??

What's really left to address? The reasons given were the
reasons; the Minbari warrior caste were very much against the Babylon
project; an extremist clan within that caste decided to frame Sinclair
for murder, using what little info they had on the vorlons, in an
attempt to destabalize or defeat the goals of B5.

http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-5764 (07/1996)

"3. Will we ever find out why Kosh allowed himself to be "poisoned" in the pilot episode now?"

You're assuming he allowed it.

http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-1691 (05/1998)

> Was Kosh actually poisoned or did he just fake it for the
> natives?

No, he wasn't faking it. Understand that their appearance as a
being of light is only how they want to appear; they are life forms
much the same as many others, and can be poisoned if one knows the
right combination of substances.

Somewhere JMS might have said that Valen/Sinclair revealed as little as possible (only what he knew that people knew), and purposefully avoided saying some things (e.g. any specific warning about the Earth-Minbari war that would have prevented it) because he didn't want to mess things up. I think we know from the first three seasons of B5 the broad strokes of what Sinclair knew and what he would have said when he appeared as Valen.

We saw some counterproductive effects of telling people about the future too (e.g. Delenn telling John in WWE, while Sheridan was time-shifted forward and they were prisoners in Centauri Prime, not to go to Z'ha'dum precipitating his decision to go)

Because of that, I always try to leave the "Sinclair told them" deus ex machina as the very last resource to answer a question.

And there's my own personal opinions influencing that too: all of those circles of "they did that because they knew they had to because someone from the future told them" make my head spin...

That idea of alter-Talia vs. Lyta fighting in the Telepath War would be cool... may even be possible canon-wise (I think JMS left open the possibility that Talia's gift could be in the hands of the Psi Corps).

[Kevin]

While much can be debated and considered over the Talia character, I think we can trust that she's alive. As for the rest... who knows? Would be awfully cool to have a super teep vs. super teep battle in the Telepath War though

[grumbler]

I think the "almost said 'dissected'" bit from Bester was a ruse to try to get the B5 command staff to react emotionally and leak something so he didn't have to probe.

I really don't think dissection would have told them anything, as they had a cooperative personality and the abilities, if organic, could have been detected via normal scanning means.

Personally, I prefer to think that the artificial personality knew about, but could not access, the new abilities. Otherwise there was an uberteep runing around on the PsiCorps side, and JMS disliked overly-powerful charactors (or at least overly-powerful charactors who were not constrained in some significant fashion).

Maybe we will get the answer to this in the near future!

[Jordan_Alexander]

I believe Talia wound up dissected and bits of her were floating around in some jars at Psi Corp headquarters. I can't recall the episode where he mentioned it but I defiently do remember Garibaldi hesitaignly sitting down after getting a look from Sheridan NOT to rip Bester's head off.

[jcbatz]

Talia

I'm not quite sure where to put this question, so anything dealing with "the canon" seemed appropriate.

So, my question is, what about Talia? I just finished the Psi Corps books and they barely mention her. Is anyone else wondering what the Psi Corps was going to do with Talia once they got her back to Mars (presumably) and found that she was not only suped-up psi-wise, but also a stable telekinetic?

Or is the basic assumption that those traits were swallowed by the sleeper personality and were lost forever? I keep expecting her to show up again. I really wanted "Bunny" from the Technomage books to end up being Talia's sleeper persona.

As for the rest of the discussion of "canon," I think that all of these aspects of the show point out different filters with which to view the events. The show by itself is one experience, the show filtered through the books is another, the show filtered through the commentaires is another, and so on. The truth points to itself.

[Andrew_Swallow]

Originally posted by iamsheridan
On the other hand one would think that in that case they also knew about the defenses, medlab, etc.

/IamS

The Vorlon's would know that these things exist and that after Kosh had been there a year that they worked. What the Vorlons would not know is what actions Kosh needed to do to get them battle ready. A large change in people is very suspicious.

[grumbler]

I think that there is a simpler way out of Capt montoya's well-reasoned objection to the Vorlons being willing to risk Kosh's life on a ploy: we do not actually know that Kosh was ever at risk (though if JMS has weighed in on this and I just cannot find it please correct me). All we know is that B5's scanners, millions ofyears behind Vorlon technology, indicated this. Suppose Kosh was lying doggo the who time? Then all of the objective pointed out by Andrew could be met without the risk that CM points out would normally prohbit the gamble.

[iamsheridan]

Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
In my opinion this conspiracy theory of the Vorlons themselves plotting Kosh's assasination attempt fails in a simple thing:

They could not have know that Lyta would scan him, even if they knew that Lyta was there and that she was the direct descendant of someone touched by the Vorlons she had to be ordered by Takashima to scan Kosh.

Actually, they could!

They could have asked Sinclair!

They might have known for a thousand years that Kosh would go to an Earth built space station, get attacked, and scanned by Lyta. And survive with no ill effects. On the other hand one would think that in that case they also knew about the defenses, medlab, etc.

/IamS

[Capt.Montoya]

In my opinion this conspiracy theory of the Vorlons themselves plotting Kosh's assasination attempt fails in a simple thing:

They could not have know that Lyta would scan him, even if they knew that Lyta was there and that she was the direct descendant of someone touched by the Vorlons she had to be ordered by Takashima to scan Kosh. Let's assume that something would have compelled her to scan Kosh, she would still have needed to get Dr. Kyle (and Lt. Takashima) permision.
The Vorlons had no control over that happening. Without that information Dr. Kyle wouldn't have been able to save Kosh (and even then it was hard to do).
I don't think that practically immortal beings like Vorlons would subject themselves to that much risk of dying.

It also ignores a plot point that was part of B5: Takashima was part of the Bureau 13 conspiracy.
She didn't know it, according to the original outline it would have been her revealed as the traitor with an implanted personality. That it didn't happen on screen doesn't mean that fact was scrapped.
Takashima was indeed on it, meaning the conspiracy against Sinclair had Earth people involved, most likely linked to the group that tried to pry open that hole in his mind and look at the sky full of stars.
It's quite likely her alter ego somehow made her Lyta scan Kosh, this would imply Sinclair, which is something the conspirators wanted in the first place.

The Minbari involved in the plot was warrior caste, given their conflicts with the religious caste and other details (they didn't believe the prophecy of Valen supported the involvement with B5, they were the ones that ousted Delenn from the Grey Council, not believing the Vorlons were important) I'm not surprised they would like a chance to create trouble for the station and its commander.

I haven't watched the series for a while, so forgive me if I'm forgetting something that contradicts my opinion above.


Going back to the original point:
I think that the major points of B5 canon will be left untouched, and some minor inconsistencies will be allowed if that makes the story better and/or if actor scheduling conflicts interfere.

Also: you have to remember that JMS has said that the books, even the ones from his outlines, are about 90% canon, I can't find that quote, but here are his own words:

As to something that adds to the canon, that tends to be something that I
generate, as with the B5 trilogies from Del Rey. They are canonical in the
broad strokes, though it's impossible to ride every single small detail and get
anything done on any kind of reasonable schedule.

That's just one example where he says that the novels are canonical in the broad strokes.

[Andrew_Swallow]

Originally posted by Kizarvexis
Second, the Vorlons engineered this themselves to give a plausible reason to have their fleet show up and scare the bejesus out of the younger races. I have heard this reason on other boards and while it is appealing, I think there could have been easier ways for the Vorlons to do this. Like just having an escort fleet for Kosh's transport in the first place.

Escorts are a military parade. Parades are fun rather than frightening. If you want to frighten somebody air a loaded weapon at him.

This arrival also had the effect of placing Babylon 5 and its crew under pressure. As Sinclair says; if you want to find out what a man is really like then fight him. (Other people prefer pressure from golf and poker but it is the same idea.)

Maintenance had to finish modify Kosh's quarters 2 days early. Theses are the same people who would have to repair a war damaged space station.

Med-lab had to deal with an unknown alien with an unknown illness and cure it before the patient died.

Security had to solve the mystery and arrest the assassin.

C'n'C had to organise the defence of Babylon 5, the alternative being to abandon their posts and run away. War machines operated by cowards are not very useful.

The way the alien ambassadors acted was determined - they plotted and stabbed Sinclair in the back.

Sinclair's bravery and decision making was revealed.


There is one other major benefit; Kosh got unblocked access to Lyta's mind. Normally she would not have given that access to an alien. Kosh then planted things in her mind as revealed in "Divided Loyalties". The book "Dark Genesis" shows that a Vorlon had planted things in Lyta's grandmother's mind.

The Vorlons got a lot of information from this simple test.

[Kizarvexis]

Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
Kosh apparently extends one of his squid-like flippers as if it is a human hand in The Gathering, but is never again shown as having any such extremities or accomodations for same in his encounter suit (until both he and Kosh II "wrestle" while outside their encounter suits.) The next time Kosh has a need for a grasping appendage (when he collects the data crystal from Abbut) he extends a mechanical claw from his suit.

I don't think this is a contradiction. He opened his suit to greet Sinclair who will soon be Valen. Just like he opened his suit in the end of "War Without End II" and "The Fall of Night". Remember what people see when they see a Vorlon, i.e. a figure from their religion? So when Lyta probes Kosh's mind to see who attacked him, she would at most see a human-like hand of the angel-like being that the Minbari assassin would see. Not to mention that it is stated in the show that the teep sees themselves in the place of the person they are scanning, so it is even more likely that she saw her own hand.

Now why would the Minbari try to poison the Vorlon coming to the station. I can think of a few reasons.

First, the Minbari behind the assassination didn't believe that the being in the encounter suit was actually a Vorlon. Official contact between the Vorlons and the Minbari had been lost for over 100 years at that point. And, IIRC, Delenn mentions that others have come pretending to be Vorlons in the movie "In the Beginning". So they could have been trying to wipe out a pretender and getting Sincair in trouble all in one fell swoop. (They may know that he was the reason that the war stopped after he was interrogated, but not why, he has a Minbari soul.) Speculation, I know, but I think it would fit the events.

Second, the Vorlons engineered this themselves to give a plausible reason to have their fleet show up and scare the bejesus out of the younger races. I have heard this reason on other boards and while it is appealing, I think there could have been easier ways for the Vorlons to do this. Like just having an escort fleet for Kosh's transport in the first place.

Third, someone else with a hatred for Vorlons tricked the Minbari into trying to assassinate Kosh. IMO, it fits the events like the first idea, but it adds a third possibly unknown group to the equation.

Originally posted by Kevin

Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
Something else, easily explained (although easily avoidable, too) was Stephen's reaction to news of the new captain. He could have forgotten him, but it would be kind of hard to forget the man you accompanied on a secret meeting during Earth's biggest war to date. Still, though, I'd take B5 gospel over SW or ST any old day.
I've seen this seen a few times and I still don't see a conflict. His line, if I'm not mistaken, is "So what does everyone think of our new Captain?". I don't really see that as being out of context, or forgetting him.

Yep, jms had this to say. Taken from the Lurker's Guide, which probably pulled it from here.

Sheridan and Franklin had already met when Sheridan arrived on B5.
Yeah, in my notes on Sheridan I had him meeting Sheridan before, but never did much with it at the time...we never see the first time Sheridan and Franklin meet in the second season, and when we do they're hanging out pretty casually, as people who've met each other before might. Bear in mind, also, that there's about 11 years between the two incidents, and at best they were casual acquaintances on one mission.

Kizarvexis

BTW, I think it is fun to discuss the details of a series and to try a figure out a way for conflicts to be resolved.

[Jan]

Originally posted by grumbler
So, I guess the question for those dismissive responders to my original post is "why is it worth responding you think my question is not worth asking?"

For those of you responding substantively, my thanks. For those of you responding humorously, my even greater thanks.

Well, I'm not terribly interested in the minutia past a certain point. Still, if anybody needs something looked up in the scripts, I'll be happy to help out (as long as the info isn't in the 2, soon to be 3, scripts I don't have :'-( )

Of course sometimes that brings the speculation to a screeching halt... <g>

Jan

[Dr Maturin]

Word up, grumbler. You are eloquent with your words. I would have just said "This is an A-B conversation, so C your way out of it."

And yes, the debate on canon is old. Canon is a religious term and all of the holy book's meanings have been debated for centuries and entire denominations and new religions have spun off from these debates. Anyone who says that arguing the canon is wrong or unsophisticated is just covering their butt because they're too lazy themselves to research and they feel left out. That, or they think it's "nerdy." What the hell ever.

[grumbler]

The concept of "canon" as a source of extrapolation, amusement, and research is much, much older than many of you seem to realize. A famous example of people having "fun with the canon" is the whole Sherlock Homes Society concept: people (some of them famous in their field, like Poul Anderson and William S. Baring-Gould have had a great deal of fun trying to reconcile the rather untidy "conon" of Sherlock Holmes (and if you like the Holmes stories you simply have to cheack out Baring-Gould's The Annotated Sherlock Holmes in which he addresses such vexing questions as how many time was Dr. Watson married and what was the actual date of each of the stories). This is the tradition of "arguing the canon" that I come from. Perhaps those who think those of us who like to toy with the canon "should relax" need to heed their own advice, because they seem to be projecting.

Now, it seems to me that there are three viewpoints being expressed here:
1. The canon doesn't matter, really. All that matters is that the story at hand works.
2. The canon matters, but only in the grossest sense, and anyone who likes to toy with the details "should relax."
3. The canon matters, and it is fun to debate the details.

Now, those who feel like #1 clearly don't belong in this discussion. If the canon doesn't matter, then surely what others feel about the canon doesn't matter either.

Those who feel like #2 above should weigh in when they think a major point of canon is being argued, but should be above participating in the discussion of what they consider "trivia."

Those who feel like #3 above (like me) should engage in the debate over the details.

Now, JMS noted (6/9/1997) in response to the question "Joe, Which of the paperback books is true to the story?" that "The Drennan book, just hitting the stands now, is 100% canon;
the Cavelos book, out for a bit now, is about 90% canon. (Those are books 7 and 9.)" It seems to me that he cares about the details, else "90% canon" would make no sense.

So, I guess the question for those dismissive responders to my original post is "why is it worth responding you think my question is not worth asking?"

For those of you responding substantively, my thanks. For those of you responding humorously, my even greater thanks.

[Dr Maturin]

<<Lord knows I still wake up with nightmares about trying to fit all of the SW canon together.>>

::Switches to Seinfeld voice::

Is Boba Fett a guy named Jaster Mereel from Concord Dawn or a clone of another guy named Jango Fett? Did the Clone Wars happen sixty or twenty years before A New Hope? Is Owen Obi-Wan's brother or the son of Anakin's step-dad? Did Hobbie die in the Battle of Hoth or survive to join the newest incarnation of Rogue Squadron? What...is...the deal?