Who librated Eath from President Clark ?

[lostforever]

I was watching season 4 again on DVD and I have some questions about Humans taking back earth.

Sheridan goes on about it should be Humans who should liberate earth and no other aliens should be involved in the actual fighting. So we see the alliance ships just there helping the injured etc.

The things was most of SheridanÆs fleet was composed of White Stares and they were mostly or entirely manned by Minbari (correct me if I am wrong). So surly humans librating earth no longer true? Some White Stars got destroyed hence the Minbari in them. So Minbari died librating earth.

The other point is without the White Stars could Sheridan librated earth from President Clark? May be yes but it would have been very difficult and costly in terms of lives.

We can say that the Minbari in those White stars was Rangers but they are still Minbari.

So itÆs not right to say that Humans librated earth from President Clark but Humans and Minbari librated earth from President Clark.

If this is the case then why ask other races to stand back in the fight? Since Minbari are fighting humans might as well have other fight as well?

[Kevin]

There were most certainly more Earth ships in the final battles of the war then there were White Stars, and an overwhelmingly larger amount of humans onboard ships then Minbari (considering the already tiny crew size of White Stars compared to EA cruisers)

[Jan]

Didn't Sheridan at one point specify that any ships had to have human captains? I think it was when he was talking about keeping it a clean fight...

Jan

[grumbler]

I must admit that I don't understand the question/speculation. When Sheridan talked of a "clean fight" he was clearly talking about his forces versus those of Clarke. Sheridan's forces clearly included the Whitestars, as had been made clear in his first engagement with Earthgov. Because they were crewed by Rangers, who took their oaths to Ranger One more than they took their loyalty to Minbar, they weren't agents of Minbar, they were agents of Sheridan.

[Merian]

Sheridan said he wanted all humans in the command chairs cause he didn't want people to think the EM war was starting all over again .

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Merian
Sheridan said he wanted all humans in the command chairs cause he didn't want people to think the EM war was starting all over again .

Do you know which episode this was in? I have been looking for this statement and cannot find it.

[Jan]

Originally posted by grumbler
Do you know which episode this was in? I have been looking for this statement and cannot find it.

In 'No Surrender, No Retreat', Commander levitt says, "I thought you had all League worlds backing you up. Why do you need us?" and Sheridan replies, "Because I want this to be a clean fight. The other wolds won't fight for us, but they won't get in the way, either."

I remember a comment that Sheridan made about 'that means human captains only' but I can't find the exact script at the moment.

Jan

[Kevin]

In "The Face of the Enemy" he tells Ivanova that he needs it to be humans leading the battle so it can be a clean fight, in explaining why he wants her to be the head of the fleet in his absence instead of Delenn

[Vir]

Either way, the White Stars are seen by Earth Force as 'Sherriden's forces'

If they were accompanied by Minbari / Brakiri / Drazi etc it would be an entirely different concept.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Kevin
In "The Face of the Enemy" he tells Ivanova that he needs it to be humans leading the battle so it can be a clean fight, in explaining why he wants her to be the head of the fleet in his absence instead of Delenn

Yes, but this is a far cry from the claim that all of the Whitestars in the fleet have human captains.

The Lurker's Guide raised these issues many years ago, when the episodes first aired, and I think if there was direct evidence that all the Whitestars were captained by humans, it would have been noted way back then or added as the site was revised in light of new knowledge.

As it is, I agree with Vir and TLG: the Whitestars were simply seen as "Sheridan's forces" and not as alien ships per se.

[lostforever]

As it is, I agree with Vir and TLG: the Whitestars were simply seen as "Sheridan's forces" and not as alien ships per se.

The thing I never understood was that why were the White Stars considered as "Sheridan Forces"? Just like that. Nobody from earth questions where Sheridan got those ships from?

Given the climate (fear of aliens i.e. Minbari, misinformation etc) at earth at that time,
It would be ônaturalö for earth to assume that Sheridan is puppet of the Minbari given that White Stars are Minbari technology and entirely built by them. (I am making a big assumption here that earth knew that White Stars belonged to Minbari).

I know that white Stars belong to the Rangers not the Minbari military but as far as I know Rangers are funded and armed by the Minbari. So to an outsider Rangers are another arm of the Minbari military.

The main point I was try to get across was that earth was librated largely by Minbari (because without White Stars it would have been extremely difficult because earth ships would have outnumbered SheridanÆs ships) but this point was kind of glossed over in the series. I know Sheridan say it should be human captains in the white stars etc but the ships themselves were Minbari.

Moving slightly away from this, Sinclair once said that Rangers are mainly Humans and some Minbari. How and why is this possible? Should it be the other way around?
The Religious caste was building these ships for the Rangers, surly they were not expecting to fill them with Humans?

Sorry if I am not making any sense ;-)

[LytaaaarGh]

My ú10 worth
I agree that Minbari died for the liberation of earth whilst crewing the White stars and so it could be argued they fought in the liberation of earth.

The other ideas though have different ways of looking at them.
A)Firslty During the war
i) People 'in the know'
ii) People not 'in the know'
B)Secondly After the War
i) Their side, your side and the Truth.

A)During the war the people in the know, like Clarke and some of the trusted commanders and possibly some psi-core would have known exactly what the whitestars were*. (and here i raise another point as to the validity of the comment that they belong to the Minbari.) They were Vorlon tech more than minbari tech... they were built bythe minbari but the permission to make them, i presume, was given/approved/supervised by the Vorlons (the Minbari would never have stolen the tech from the vorlons or made it without their permission). The whitestars were made under instruction from the Vorlons to fight in the Shadow war, they were also a gift to Sheriden (i think ???).
Thus the Minbari were only tools in the process of the Whitestars.

ii)The people not 'in the know' Like the general population and most of the army (remember that they were told that Sheridens forces took no prisoners/survivors etc) would have been fed a load of Propaganda.... for a longtime before the war it was said Sheriden was a puppet of the Minbari etc, this message wouldnt have changed, they could have said anything they wanted. Sheriden could have no control over that... so when he was attacking, then yes, probably all of earth beleived or feared he was a puppet for Minbar (this was unavoidable).

B) After the War
This is the part i think Sheriden was trying to be sure he could stand to; in the event he won. That he could prove to the people that he was not a puppet. That Earthers had lead the final fight and liberated earth (by having all human captains and fleet commanders).
The fact that Minbari would allow themselves to commanded by humans (and die for them) actually sustantiated his claim. It was the only way he could restore any shred of trust after all the propoganda i suspect.


*Also remember that they had used Shadow tech on thier destroyers so were in league with shadows. They did not want this as public knowledge, so they would not want to explain that whitestars used Vorlon tech.
Also remember that there was a complete external news block... the general public did not even know about the Shadow-Vorlon war

[grumbler]

Originally posted by lostforever
The thing I never understood was that why were the White Stars considered as "Sheridan Forces"? Just like that. Nobody from earth questions where Sheridan got those ships from?

Oh, i quite agree (and this point was brought up by the Lurker's Guide when the episode NSNR first aired - go and look.

But even the EA commander at proxima (as pro-Clarke as they come) referred to the Whitestars as "Sheridan's forces" and not "Minbari ships."

Moving slightly away from this, Sinclair once said that Rangers are mainly Humans and some Minbari. How and why is this possible? Should it be the other way around?
The Religious caste was building these ships for the Rangers, surly they were not expecting to fill them with Humans?

I think it was clear to the Religious and Workers castes that the Rangers, being renounced by the warrier class, would inevitably be dominated by humans. After all, historically Minbari fighting was the job of the warrier caste, and so any Minbari with the "heart of a warrrier" would presumably have changed caste. warfare wasn't what those castes did, and while some among them would want to take up the burden of actually fighting, the bulk of the rangers would be human.

You will note that for a long time the Minbari manning the "front seats" remained robed as Religious Caste - perhaps they were needed for quite some time before there were enough rangers trained. Still, the argument that the Whitestars were not "Minbari" per se would have some weight, even if all of their captains were not humans (which i still can find no evidence is the case).

[Garibaldi's Hair]

Originally posted by grumbler

But even the EA commander at proxima (as pro-Clarke as they come) referred to the Whitestars as "Sheridan's forces" and not "Minbari ships."

I imagine this is quite simply because Sheridan is seen as being in command of these forces (as would have been clear from the earlier exchanges) and nothing more than that.

There is nothing there than acknowledges that he owned/built/whatever these ships, just that he is the man at the helm.

Still, the argument that the Whitestars were not "Minbari" per se would have some weight, even if all of their captains were not humans (which i still can find no evidence is the case).

There will be no evidence to this effect because it just isn't important enough to be shown on screen.

However, it was rare to see any White Star ship under the command of a Minbari other than Delenn at any point during the series (Ceremonies of Light and Dark springs to mind), and I don't recall seeing a single one during the war to liberate earth.

I too remember Sheridan clearly stating that in order for it to be a clean fight the ships had to have human captains (I'm sure he used those actual words), but I also can't remember exactly where he said it.

For me, I think the fact that we don't see any non-human captains should be taken to imply that here weren't any. This is only television after all!

[lostforever]

fight in the Shadow war, they were also a gift to Sheriden (i think ???).

Anybody know more on this? Are they gift to Sheridan?


Another side question, when were the Rangers created? I take it it was Minbari who created them? Sinclair helped in their training or did he create them when he went to Minbar?