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Sinclair Conspiracy Theory.....

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  • #91
    All 3 came from the future, the Minbari keeps two of them with themselves, but the one with Sinclair's DNA imprinted in its memory is the one that kept appearing and reappearing.
    What do you mean "kept appearing and reappearing"?

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    • #92
      Originally posted by vacantlook
      What do you mean "kept appearing and reappearing"?
      I was always under the impression that Delenn's triluminary MUST be different from the one Sinclair used, because if Sinclair's triluminary was designed to transform one into Valen, then Delenn's using it would have kinda... spoiled... the J&D arc!

      Will we ever find out who the third trilum was for? Anyone wanna guess?
      I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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      • #93
        Yes, Sinclair and co did not twig that they were being tricked by a telepath who was telling them just sufficient information for their needs but no more. Playing stupid is a good trick. In the comics you see Zathrus modifying Minbari fighters to make them compatible with Babylon 4 - not the actions of an idiot.
        Question: Where did the idea that Zathras is a Telepath come from??

        And, to me at least, Zathras never came across as Stupid.
        Just Alien.

        And, of course, he's technically adept.
        He WAS chief of maintenance for the Great Machine.
        To him Fighters are probably tinker toys.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by grumbler
          I was always under the impression that Delenn's triluminary MUST be different from the one Sinclair used, because if Sinclair's triluminary was designed to transform one into Valen, then Delenn's using it would have kinda... spoiled... the J&D arc!

          Will we ever find out who the third trilum was for? Anyone wanna guess?
          OK. Triluminary theory.


          I believe that the triluminaries have one function, and a few related secondary ones. Triluminaries are designed to toggle the user between Minbari and Human form. When they do this, they need to take a sample of the subjects DNA, then that gets altered when the subject is in the cocoon. As a result of this, the Triluminary still holds the DNA pattern of the last subject. This is why the Grey Council Triluminary works on Delenn and Sinclair. It recognizes Sinclair as the last user, and it recognizes Delenn as a descendant, with traces of Sinclair's DNA. I don't think the Minbari know anything else about how it works or why.

          When they test Sinclair, it lights up at a 2 foot distance. When they test Delenn, she has to be almost touching it.

          I think the locations of the triluminaries are
          1) With the Grey Council on their ship
          2) In a safe location on Minbar
          3) On B5 with Delenn

          Now, you might say that what if the Minbari didn't test Sinclair with the Valen triluminary? Zathras told Sinclair, because obviously at some time Sinclair/Valen would have been curious about the device. Knowing about its characteristics, Valen would have told the Grey Council to have one around, arranged it to be his, in case it came in useful. They would have taken his word at it. He could also have easily made sure they didn't screw with that one by having someone transform with it. Maybe he threw away the rest of the pieces that make it transform. Maybe each of the triluminary triangles is coded to work with a certain set of the base crystals, etc.

          That leads us to the next part of the discussion, what did Sinclair tell the Minbari about their function, so that it would not make them think he had used one? Who knows. But Delenn knew what it would do. Perhaps the Minbari experimented with one at some point.

          Why were the Minbari given 3? In case they screwed up and lost one.


          A few visual aids.

          Delenn's


          Sinclair's


          The council's on Delenn


          The council's on Sinclair


          Note that the Grey Council staff has a stylized Triluminary build into its head.
          "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by bakana
            Question: Where did the idea that Zathras is a Telepath come from??

            And, to me at least, Zathras never came across as Stupid.
            Just Alien.

            And, of course, he's technically adept.
            He WAS chief of maintenance for the Great Machine.
            To him Fighters are probably tinker toys.
            I had assumed that Zathras was a mundane until his role playing card in the Babylon 5 game showed him to be a member of the telepathic faction. Err!!! What is he doing in there? On rewatching Zathras talks about something irrelevant, gives the people he is with a funny look and suddenly understands what they want.

            As for playing stupid, watch his interrogation in the season 1 episode "Babylon Squared". The Earthforce officers think that they have tricked an enemy private into revealing secret information, where as they have The OneÆs aid-de-camp who is briefing them.
            Andrew Swallow

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            • #96
              Originally posted by NotKosh
              I believe that the triluminaries have one function, and a few related secondary ones. Triluminaries are designed to toggle the user between Minbari and Human form. When they do this, they need to take a sample of the subjects DNA, then that gets altered when the subject is in the cocoon. As a result of this, the Triluminary still holds the DNA pattern of the last subject. This is why the Grey Council Triluminary works on Delenn and Sinclair. It recognizes Sinclair as the last user, and it recognizes Delenn as a descendant, with traces of Sinclair's DNA. I don't think the Minbari know anything else about how it works or why.
              I do not think that the triluminary has to "hold the DNA pattern of the last subject" (note that "sequence" would be a better term than pattern).

              To be more technical about the DNA changes: the triluminary has to insert several Minbari genes into Sinclair, and most likely also remove or "deactivate" some human genes. For example, the genes for growing a headbone are not present in the human DNA.
              It may also need to rewrite some genes as "hybrid" ones, so that those specific genes can express and function both in Minbari and Humans.
              The transformation makes the resulting genetic makeup the dominant one (i.e. the Children of Valen are Minbari looking, David Sheridan doesn't have a bonehead and looks human).
              There might be some common genes, but is very unlikely, since both species evolved in different planets. Similarities in form and function can be explained by convergent evolution, but they don't mean the same genes (e.g. bat wings and bird wings do form from the same genes)

              Note that if we don't use the framework of current genetics knowledge to speculate on this it can easily become a meaningless discussion.

              The margin of error from designating one of three as the only one capable of enacting the transformation is large... you have a 66.7% (2/3) probability that Delenn won't transform the intended way.
              When they test Sinclair, it lights up at a 2 foot distance. When they test Delenn, she has to be almost touching it.
              Delenn's genetic makeup contains only part of Sinclair's DNA, the triluminary then must require a certain "signal strength" (dependent on DNA concentration and proximity to the source) to glow.

              I think the locations of the triluminaries are
              1) With the Grey Council on their ship
              2) In a safe location on Minbar
              3) On B5 with Delenn
              I was under the impresion that Delenn sent "her" triluminary back after a while.
              Details on where she got the triluminary would be useful here (I don't remember right now). If she received it in the Grey Council ship it means they might have had two on board.
              Now, you might say that what if the Minbari didn't test Sinclair with the Valen triluminary? Zathras told Sinclair, because obviously at some time Sinclair/Valen would have been curious about the device. Knowing about its characteristics, Valen would have told the Grey Council to have one around, arranged it to be his, in case it came in useful. They would have taken his word at it. He could also have easily made sure they didn't screw with that one by having someone transform with it. Maybe he threw away the rest of the pieces that make it transform. Maybe each of the triluminary triangles is coded to work with a certain set of the base crystals, etc.

              That leads us to the next part of the discussion, what did Sinclair tell the Minbari about their function, so that it would not make them think he had used one? Who knows. But Delenn knew what it would do. Perhaps the Minbari experimented with one at some point.

              Why were the Minbari given 3? In case they screwed up and lost one.
              I see several possible contradictions in your message: the more Valen told the Minbari that one triluminary was special the more they would wonder why and experiment with that particular one.
              Also, Delenn was told the others wouldn't miss the triluminary she was given, if it had to be "the special one" it was more likely they would notice.
              I think all three worked the same.
              Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
              James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

              Comment


              • #97
                All Valen would have to do, at some later point in time, is give the Grey Council (after he had formed it) his Triluminary and suggest that it be left at their disposal. Nothing too overt about that. Then he would tell them to store the other 2 somewhere for the future.

                Delenn didn't need the Valen one, I don't think I implied that. Any of the other two would have worked fine for her.

                I agree she would have returned it probably right after her transformation, since she didn't need it anymore, and its discovery would only bring up unneeded questions.

                I was implying the same as you pointed out more specifically with the DNA concentrations between Delenn and Sinclair.
                "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

                Comment


                • #98
                  I misread what you said... you only implied that the Grey Council triluminary was precisely the one that Sinclair used to transform and that is why it recognized Delenn (and why it would glow in the presence of any other Child of Valen and that unnamed woman).
                  I could agree to that... but the other possibility is that all three triluminaries were the same, and already "tuned" to Sinclair's DNA back on the premises of the Great Machine.
                  I think this was the case, and that Valen didn't ever say that any of the triluminaries was more significant than the others (because they were all the same).
                  Or he simply could have made sure that he was the one that designated which triluminary was to be kept by the Grey Council in his role as the One that leads the Nine if the previous use of it on his transformation was really significant to the properties of that particular device.

                  In any event, the triluminary is technomagic at its most advanced... imagine that a simple misshapen crystal, held to a metal frame by a few wires, when placed on top of colored crystals can effect such a transformation!
                  Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                  James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Capt.Montoya

                    In any event, the triluminary is technomagic at its most advanced... imagine that a simple misshapen crystal, held to a metal frame by a few wires, when placed on top of colored crystals can effect such a transformation!
                    "We are all star stuff"

                    Jan
                    "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                    Comment


                    • I had assumed that Zathras was a mundane until his role playing card in the Babylon 5 game showed him to be a member of the telepathic faction. Err!!!
                      Zo. Any information on whether that card game has ANY standing as far as "Canon" goes ??

                      IOW, was JMS involved in setting up those character traits, or did he "Bless" the game?

                      Or is it just something out there generating money for Warner ?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
                        I misread what you said... you only implied that the Grey Council triluminary was precisely the one that Sinclair used to transform and that is why it recognized Delenn (and why it would glow in the presence of any other Child of Valen and that unnamed woman).
                        I could agree to that... but the other possibility is that all three triluminaries were the same, and already "tuned" to Sinclair's DNA back on the premises of the Great Machine.
                        I think this was the case, and that Valen didn't ever say that any of the triluminaries was more significant than the others (because they were all the same).
                        Or he simply could have made sure that he was the one that designated which triluminary was to be kept by the Grey Council in his role as the One that leads the Nine if the previous use of it on his transformation was really significant to the properties of that particular device.

                        In any event, the triluminary is technomagic at its most advanced... imagine that a simple misshapen crystal, held to a metal frame by a few wires, when placed on top of colored crystals can effect such a transformation!
                        Come to think of it, you are probably right. After talking with Zathras, if Zathras didn't know, when he was using the great machine, Valen would have told him that whatever triluminary the Council used must react to his presence, so Zathras might have set them up to do that.
                        "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

                        Comment


                        • Gospel of Thomas

                          Why construct the Thomas Gospel as being less authoritative than the canonical gospels? Certainly, most scholars (without a sectarian agenda; such as Homard Bloom) insist that it predates them. Chronologically it occupies a place between the hypothesized "Q" document (which is lost) and Mark. And it seems odd that this stance would appear in this forum as it seems likely that Gnostic theology seemed to profoundly influence B5 cosmology. But perhaps we can get JMS to address this issue.... (and how Jung fits in? And if the triune structure of Indo-European societies influenced how Minbari culture was organized?)

                          I have taught Comparative Religion at SLU & Clarkson, and for years have been planning a class on 'Religion & Interfaith Dialogue in Science Fiction' that I intend to build around B5. I'm doing fieldwork this year in Pondicherry, but hope to propose the class for next year.

                          Comment


                          • Triluminary.

                            Hi Guys & Gals,
                            I always suspected the Triluminary was a Comlink(???)
                            Weren't they D.N.A matched to their user??
                            Just my theory.
                            I loved TLT. The references to G'kar & Steven (going beyond the Rim) had me in tears.
                            CHEERS from Downunder.
                            The Gavel
                            Abso-fragging-lutely-dammit.

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