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Sinclair Conspiracy Theory.....

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  • #16
    Another reason that Sinclair wasn't returned to human form

    In one of the second season episodes, Confessions and Lamentations, Delenn talks of the time she was lost, waited in a temple, and someone said to her "I will not let any harm come to my little ones". According to jms, that was said by Valen (confirming the "I knew you would come" had significance in Soul Hunter). This says that although it speaks of his "dying", he did not in fact "die" but left in a similar fashion to Sheridan, and was able to for at least that moment, return to Minbar to see to the safety of one of his descendants (perhaps because he knows of her importance in her future, his past?).
    "Ivanova is God!"

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    • #17
      Agree completely, SpooRancher. I have always been so convinced that he went "beyond the Rim" that I haven't even questioned it. I have never been able to figure out exactly HOW he would have even known of Delenn in the temple, and it was only a couple of months ago that I connected "I will not allow my little ones to come to harm in my Great Temple" with "I knew you would come" (I imagined for a long time that it was Kosh/Valeria(?), not Sinclair, who had comforted the youngster Delenn). But we know that it is possible to come back from BTR, as Lorien did it before our eyes.

      I wonder if the return of Sinclair at that moment was designed purely to instill in Delenn a sense of destiny, to give her the courage to undergo her transformation (and survive the Inquisitor?). There are some deep currents in B5 that I still haven't quite figured out. JMS notes that
      Well, it's about TIME somebody noticed that little exchange in "Confessions and Lamentations." Sometimes I stick stuff so obviously in the foreground that I'm afraid it's going to be too blatant, and then nobody seems to notice it, looking instead at the tiny stuff in the background.

      Unfortunately, all I can say for now is that it is significant to
      Delenn's character and growth, and her sense of being special, and called into the religious caste.
      Which I find kinda funny, since she was religious caste by birth, was she not?

      This is the kind of stuff you have to love. Otherwise it drives you crazy!
      I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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      • #18
        There's one other aside that you have all failed to mention. The name Sinclair see's it's geneaology in France & Scotland, not England. But by the time of the "Battle of Britain" they would be subjects of the UK (or allied as such) ... which would follow that there may have been Sinclair's that were fighter pilots for Britain. Unless of course, they were French ... but then who would they be flying for at the Battle of Britain?

        Maybe this is one of his ancestors:

        Wing Commander Gordon Leonard Sinclair, OBE, DFC, 84, 310 Squadron, Cambridgeshire, Hurricanes.

        from the following site:
        Battle of Britain Survivors


        On an aside, Sheridan sees it's lineage in Ireland.

        Sheridan
        The name Sheridan in Ireland is derived from the Gaelic O'Sirideain Sept who were located in Counties Longford and Cavan. It is in these Counties and in the Province of Leinster that the majority of descendants can still be found.
        "If I could be a bird, I'd be a Flying Purple People Eater because then people would sing about me and I could fly down and eat them because I hate that song. " - Jack Handey

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        • #19
          Great thread, LytaaaarGH!

          Further to what several have gleaned from the Mary Magdaline/Holy Grail portion (also not to step on any toes of belief, and entirely in the interest of Conspiritization):

          If we accept that the 13th Century Sinclair is of Merovingian blood and that this bloodline is the Holy Grail, the the parallel can be made that the Sinclair/Valen bloodline, of which Delenn is descendant, is the "holy grail" bloodline of Minbar. Then, of course, that would mean that there is only one such bloodline for both planets. WOW!

          Also, I seem to remember that there were exactly three luminaries that came from Epsilon 3.
          John Brittain
          2blueshoes.com for free blues downloads

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          • #20
            A couple points:

            The hint that Sakai has been found occurs in Sinclair/Valen's log on Babylon 4.
            Which strongly implies that she was located Before the end of the Shadow War.
            Most likely by some of Valen's original Rangers.
            They would all have been told to be alert for reports of unidentified "Alien" species.
            Remember that, in that time period, we Humans were still confined to our own solar system, so would be an Unknown/Unidentified species.

            The cover for such an order would, of course, be that the Minbari didn't Know all the Shadow allies.
            Or all the Vorlon allies for that matter.

            The little bit we know about that conflict also shows that a large part of what Valen did was persuade some "Uncommitted" races to declare allegience to the Vorlon side of the conflict.

            Another: We don't Know that Valen went "Beyond the Rim".

            Valen/Sinclair and Sakai might easily have gone to work for the Vorlons on a long term basis.
            Either like Sebastion, in "cold storage" until needed, or as some sort of roving trouble shooters.
            The Vorlons monitored all the races, but why should they do it personally?
            They did need special atmosphere supplies brought about the Minbari Cruiser when they were conferring with Dukhat.
            And had to have a section of the ship that was Off Limits to the Crew.
            That's got to be a Lot of trouble, even on a Planet.

            Much easier to have a couple Native agents report in periodically and alert them if a problem shows up.
            Like maybe a Shadow Soldier. Or a buried Spaceship.

            That would nicely account for Valen helping out a lost Minbari child.
            He'd have a perfect cover. Just hanging around the temple, chatting with the visitors.
            Keeping an eye on his Children.

            Remember, the Vorlons DO know the secret of Immortality. It's theirs to give.
            Last edited by bakana; 08-17-2004, 09:23 AM.

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            • #21
              Bakana, I had similar thoughts about going beyond the rim. It would seem like Sinclair/Valen wouldvÆe needed help going beyond the rim, and he was most closely connected to the Minbari and the Vorlons, so why would one of the other First Ones take him along. It seems more likely that the Vorlons kept him around. I wouldnÆt think heÆd be able to do the time travel thing agin. Shock to the system, etc. That might even go a ways to explain why Kosh immediately reacted to/accepted Sinclair in ôThe Gathering.ö It would have been a really recent association in Vorlon terms. As good as all that sounds, though, I wind wind up with more questions than theories. Did he stay around just for that one event û to help shape DelennÆs life? Were there other Valenn sightings over the years? If he was being kept by the Vorlons, why wasnÆt KoshÆs inner dialog something like ôWhat are you doing here?ö If he was around, when did he leave and where did he go? Did he exit stage right with the Vorlons and Shadows? Is he still frozen on the Vorlon homeworld? Is he going to come back yet again? I must go lie down, now.
              "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Shadow-Sentient
                There's one other aside that you have all failed to mention. The name Sinclair see's it's geneaology in France & Scotland, not England. But by the time of the "Battle of Britain" they would be subjects of the UK (or allied as such) ... which would follow that there may have been Sinclair's that were fighter pilots for Britain. Unless of course, they were French ... but then who would they be flying for at the Battle of Britain?
                It it was the French side, then he would have been Free French, flying for the British. No French flew for the Germans, that I have ever heard of.

                Americans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, Free French, Poles, and probably a few others volunteered and flew with/for the RAF in The Battle of Britain.
                "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

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                • #23
                  A quick google finds several references

                  I'd bet that JMS did a similar search prior to writing that particular line of Dialogue.
                  He knows the FANS would.

                  SP(SF)10 - Wing Commander Gordon Leonard Sinclair OBE DFC

                  Sinclair joined 19 Squadron on 27 November 1937, 1940 he was still with the squadron and saw action over Dunkirk destroying a number of aircraft.
                  He was awarded the DFC (25.6.40).
                  In late June he was posted to 310 (Czech) Squadron as A Flight Commander and claimed 4 more victories.
                  On 9 September he was involved in a collision with another aircraft and forced to bale out.
                  On 29 September he was shot down by a Bf 109 in an engagement but baled out unhurt.
                  He was awarded the Czech Military Cross (24.12.40).
                  In January 1941 he was posted to HQ 12 Group on staff duties. He then formed and commanded 313 Squadron in May 1941.
                  He took command of 79 Squadron in September and led it until posted to Air Ministry in December.
                  He was given command of 56 Squadron at Bradwell Bay in October 1943 and was promoted to Wing Commander in May 1944 and joined the staff at HQ 84 Group.
                  In January 1945 he returned to the Air Ministry and in October was appointed Personal Air Secretary to the Secretary of State for Air.
                  He was also awarded the Order of King George of Podograd by the Czechs in recognition of his wartime efforts.
                  while the British had an Air Minister, Sir Archibald Sinclair,
                  And there is the Sinclair Family history website:


                  Sinclair Family History

                  The history of the Sinclair family can be traced back for more than a thousand years. Closely related to the crowns of France, England, and Scotland, Sinclairs have served major roles in world affairs throughout the pivotal events of western civilization. Sinclair ancestors have made their marks on world history in the early invasions of Europe by the Scandinavian Vikings; in the Crusades in the Holy Land; in William the Conqueror's historic invasion of England and the Battle of Hastings; in the Scottish Wars of Independence; in expeditions to the New World a century before Columbus; in battles sparked by the Religious Reformation as it swept across Europe; and more.
                  Last edited by bakana; 08-17-2004, 02:58 PM.

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                  • #24
                    concerning Triluminary

                    I cannot remember, I'm quite certain its in "Babylon Squared" that when delen is given the Triluminary, they Minbari said that there were still two others. just thought I would throw that in if no one else has mentioned it.
                    "It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain. If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world, because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past." -- G'Kar in Babylon 5:"In the Beginning"

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                    • #25
                      I don't think that anyone could actually google things before 1998.

                      What Delenn says, if we all go back to the episode in question,
                      that a Minbari appeared to her, when she was a child lost in the city
                      and wandered into the temple; a vision, telling her that "I will not
                      allow harm to come to my little ones here in my great house." (Note:
                      "my little ones" being a coy bit of foreshadowing to her being a child
                      of Valen, but never mind that for now.)

                      Obviously there were many drawings and pictures and records of
                      Valen, but most were destroyed in the Great War. And those that
                      survived have been, over a thousand years, idealized and distorted by
                      whichever caste is currently claiming him as theirs. (Valen refused to
                      belong to any one caste.)

                      Which, btw, is also what Delenn referred to in season one, when
                      she was lost and in fear of death, and she looked to Sinclair with
                      reverence and said, "I knew you would come for me."
                      http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-2961

                      I never connected those dots when watching the series... I guess it's an open question if Sinclair/Valen transcended beyond the rim, I had assumed he had, I didn't see anything that would tell me he remained in physical form.

                      Here's a quote about Sinclair's ancestors, from 1994, I can't remember to which episode this might refer:
                      As I recall, the photo and article is about Sinclair's ancestor, who
                      fought in the Battle of Britain. And the framed piece is indeed a
                      Sinclair Aircraft logo.
                      http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-14084
                      Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                      James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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                      • #26
                        And the framed piece is indeed a
                        Sinclair Aircraft logo.
                        I believe JMS was talking about some of the decorations in Sinclair's office & quarters.
                        So it's not necessarily about a particular episode, but the overall decorating scheme.

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                        • #27
                          Just a thought... during the battle of the line and Sinclair's capture... when the Grey Council found out through the Triluminary that Sinclair has "the soul of Valen" why would one member later say (in Season One) that if he remembers what happens then he should be killed. That would irrevocably alter the future and the past and the Shadows would have won the great war. The "closed Cirle" would have been broken and Valen would never had existed. B4 would never had been "taken". In fact... No Babylon station would have been built. Sinclair/Valen was more than just a nexus in time.

                          Any thoughts?
                          The Eagle stood erect on the Mountain watched the ships arrive.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by WalkingEagle
                            Just a thought... during the battle of the line and Sinclair's capture... when the Grey Council found out through the Triluminary that Sinclair has "the soul of Valen" why would one member later say (in Season One) that if he remembers what happens then he should be killed. That would irrevocably alter the future and the past and the Shadows would have won the great war. The "closed Cirle" would have been broken and Valen would never had existed. B4 would never had been "taken". In fact... No Babylon station would have been built. Sinclair/Valen was more than just a nexus in time.

                            Any thoughts?
                            Remember, the Minbarir believe that souls are reincarnated. The found out that Sinclair had Valen's soul, but they probably never thought that he was Valen before he went back in time. If it became necessary to remove Sinclair in order to ensure war didn't break out again, it might be regrettable, but, hey, maybe Valen's soul would reincarnate in a Minbari this time. That would be even better, no?
                            "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by WalkingEagle
                              Just a thought... during the battle of the line and Sinclair's capture... when the Grey Council found out through the Triluminary that Sinclair has "the soul of Valen" why would one member later say (in Season One) that if he remembers what happens then he should be killed. That would irrevocably alter the future and the past and the Shadows would have won the great war. The "closed Cirle" would have been broken and Valen would never had existed. B4 would never had been "taken". In fact... No Babylon station would have been built. Sinclair/Valen was more than just a nexus in time.

                              Any thoughts?

                              Yes, but they didn't know that Sinclair and Valen were the same person. For them it would be like, ahmm, science fiction, that this Earthling was their great leader a thousand years ago.

                              Imagine that you found out that someone shared DNA with William the Conquerer (not really comparable but the timescale is about right). Would your first thought be "This person will be going back in time and change history"? Even taking into account that Valen was "a Minbari not born of Minbari" it WOULD feel far fetched, don't you think?

                              Just my thoughts anyway...

                              /IamS
                              Interstellar Alliance - Sweden's largest Babylon 5-club
                              http://www.babcon.org/

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by iamsheridan
                                Yes, but they didn't know that Sinclair and Valen were the same person. For them it would be like, ahmm, science fiction, that this Earthling was their great leader a thousand years ago.

                                Imagine that you found out that someone shared DNA with William the Conquerer (not really comparable but the timescale is about right). Would your first thought be "This person will be going back in time and change history"? Even taking into account that Valen was "a Minbari not born of Minbari" it WOULD feel far fetched, don't you think?

                                Just my thoughts anyway...

                                /IamS
                                great thoughts... You are right... they didn't know. They suspected and that stayed their hand and ended the war against Earth because they didn't know how many other Minbari were born into human bodies. But the fact that it was Valen's soul to them stopped them. Delenn volunteered to keep a close eye on Valen. Of course, the Vorlons knew the entire story. Being as advanced as they were it is possible that they had technology to look into the future itself. The many avenues of the future and Sinclair was an intricate part of everything. They probably knew that no matter what, the Minbari would not kill Sinclair.

                                I can't forget the look on Delenn's face when she beheld Sinclair for the last time before leaving B4. It was the look of reverence and deep love. Later she comes to find that Sinclair is her ancestor. Cool. Very mind blowing.
                                The Eagle stood erect on the Mountain watched the ships arrive.

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