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  • nova
    replied
    *beats head against wall*

    Why couldn't Joe just pick a structure and stick with it? I realize that when the EA and EF were formed, ideas and hierarchies were drawn form military forces all over Earth. I get that, I do. *bows to JMS* But for the sake of everyone's sanity... This B5 universe makes my head feel ready to explode sometimes.

    I actually also noticed today the continuity issue with when Ivanova joined Earthforce. It seems her mother died when she was 10 (which means she never actually knew her OFF the sleepers), her brother a year later, and then she joined EarthForce. Which would have made her all of about 11 or 12... No wonder Andrei didn't approve.

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  • JPH3
    replied
    Originally posted by nova View Post
    So if I followed all that correctly, your answer to the question I asked is "operations officer"? would that be the same on a ship? what does an operations officer do exactly?
    I'm in the Army, not the Navy, but my understanding is that in both services the Operations Officer (called the 'S3' on an Army battalion or brigade staff) is the senior 'pure' staff officer and is usually third in the chain of command after the CO and XO. The other primary staff sections are Personnel (S1), Intelligence (S2) and Logistics (S4) and, depending on the size of the staff, there can be additional ones to suit the situation. The Operations officer, however, will always be the senior staff officer because the Operations section bleeds over into everything the other sections do.

    Aboard a ship, some of the functions above are (I believe) divided between various departments and divisions in addition to the staff, but each will have an Officer in Charge (OIC) and a Chief Petty Officer (CPO - a senior noncommissioned officer in the Navy) responsible for running them.

    S3's have three primary functions - orchestrating the details of an organization's daily operations (overseen by the XO), planning future activities, and ensuring that an organization's personnel are meeting their individual and collective training targets. In combat, the S3 is located in the Tactical Operations Center (the TOC) so he or she can handle coordination and communication between subordinate units, adjacent units and the staff, freeing the Commander up so he or she can concentrate on the immediate fight.

    Aboard a ship, I believe the Navy's S3-equivalent hangs out in the Combat Information Center (the CIC - where all the main comms links are) rather than on the bridge. That may be why we never saw Major Atumbe .

    V/R
    John

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  • nova
    replied
    Originally posted by JPH3 View Post
    Not having seen TLT yet (but IÆm a sucker for spoilers), I canÆt address the æCaptain vs. ColonelÆ reasoning regarding LochleyÆs change with any authority, but I can address the present-day rank structure in the US military so hopefully this will be helpful.

    In the present-day US military, a naval Captain and a Air Force, Army or Marine Colonel are equivalent ranks; they're all pay grade O-6 - one level below flag (or General) officer rank. Similarly, a naval Commander and an AF, Army or Marine Lieutenant Colonel are equivalents - pay grade O-5. Naval Lieutenant Commanders and AF, Army or Marine Majors are all O-4s; naval Lieutenants and Air Force, Army or Marine Captains are O-3s; Naval Lieutenants (Junior Grade) are the same as AF, Army or Marine First Lieutenants - pay grade O-2 and naval Ensigns are the same as Second Lieutenants in the other services - pay grade O-1.

    In the original series, Sheridan is the equivalent of a present-day naval Captain; an O-6. Ivanova starts off as a Lieutenant Commander - an O-4 - but is later promoted to full Commander - an O-5. As Sheridan's Executive Officer she does just what the duty title states - she's in charge of seeing that Sheridan's decisions and Earthforce policy are 'executed'. In other words, she oversees the day-to-day activities aboard B5 and is the Chief of Staff. Major Atumbe - an O-4 - is likely the station's Operations Officer.

    I think itÆs possible that some time in the intervening years between the end of the series and the TLT timeframe EarthGov made a policy determination that the B5 station (which isnÆt a ship) no longer fell under the ænavalÆ arm of Earthforce but wanted to keep Lochley in command. In such a case, they mightÆve offered her a choice between being laterally redesignated a Colonel or being reassigned. B5 was never a Flag officer command û Earthforce wasnÆt going to promote Lochley to Commanding General of a facility previously deemed appropriate for an O-6, particularly since the station was of lesser importance after the ISA took most of the diplomatic purpose of the station to Minbar.

    V/R
    John

    So if I followed all that correctly, your answer to the question I asked is "operations officer"? would that be the same on a ship? what does an operations officer do exactly?

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  • JPH3
    replied
    Not having seen TLT yet (but IÆm a sucker for spoilers), I canÆt address the æCaptain vs. ColonelÆ reasoning regarding LochleyÆs change with any authority, but I can address the present-day rank structure in the US military so hopefully this will be helpful.

    In the present-day US military, a naval Captain and a Air Force, Army or Marine Colonel are equivalent ranks; they're all pay grade O-6 - one level below flag (or General) officer rank. Similarly, a naval Commander and an AF, Army or Marine Lieutenant Colonel are equivalents - pay grade O-5. Naval Lieutenant Commanders and AF, Army or Marine Majors are all O-4s; naval Lieutenants and Air Force, Army or Marine Captains are O-3s; Naval Lieutenants (Junior Grade) are the same as AF, Army or Marine First Lieutenants - pay grade O-2 and naval Ensigns are the same as Second Lieutenants in the other services - pay grade O-1.

    In the original series, Sheridan is the equivalent of a present-day naval Captain; an O-6. Ivanova starts off as a Lieutenant Commander - an O-4 - but is later promoted to full Commander - an O-5. As Sheridan's Executive Officer she does just what the duty title states - she's in charge of seeing that Sheridan's decisions and Earthforce policy are 'executed'. In other words, she oversees the day-to-day activities aboard B5 and is the Chief of Staff. Major Atumbe - an O-4 - is likely the station's Operations Officer.

    I think itÆs possible that some time in the intervening years between the end of the series and the TLT timeframe EarthGov made a policy determination that the B5 station (which isnÆt a ship) no longer fell under the ænavalÆ arm of Earthforce but wanted to keep Lochley in command. In such a case, they mightÆve offered her a choice between being laterally redesignated a Colonel or being reassigned. B5 was never a Flag officer command û Earthforce wasnÆt going to promote Lochley to Commanding General of a facility previously deemed appropriate for an O-6, particularly since the station was of lesser importance after the ISA took most of the diplomatic purpose of the station to Minbar.

    V/R
    John

    Leave a comment:


  • Shr'eshhhhhh
    replied
    Originally posted by AaronB View Post
    Zog what? Zog yes? Zog no?
    Zog is in the TV.

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  • Morden
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrew_Swallow View Post
    Lochley seams to have been moved sideways rather than up.
    Nope, Tracy herself mentioned in an interview that she wanted a promotion for her character, so we should assume that an Earthforce Colonel ranks above an earthforce Captain (we've also seen another Colonel with Ari Ben Zayn). All hints we get are leaving only one conclusion for me, as I mentioned above: The Earthforce ranking system is a combined, blended one, not really in detail comparable to any of today's military ranking systems.

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  • nova
    replied
    Originally posted by RMcD View Post
    .

    I appreciate that isn't getting to the root of your question. I suspect there might be more on this in the novels, as I remember, the B-plot of the Shadow Within is about Sheridan's first getting to grips with being Captain of the Agammemnon and having trouble with the officers under him, but I haven't read it for a long time..

    You're right! You're right! I forgot about Shadow Within... I own it. I should go back through it. I think the major point of confusion for me is that Ivanova is introduced both as the First Officer AND the Executive officer and in regular US navy... there is the CO and the XO and it doesn't really matter what rank they are ( they may have others with higher rank on the ship that are not in command).

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  • Andrew_Swallow
    replied
    Watch out for Captain being 3 things
    a. A medium rank army officer.
    b. A senior naval officer equal in rank to a Colonel, who may control more than one ship.
    c. The commanding officer of a ship, whose rank can be anything from lieutenant to admiral.

    Lochley seams to have been moved sideways rather than up.

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  • RMcD
    replied
    I don't think there's much to go on in the series, unfortunately, even if you look at an episode like No Surrender No Retreat you generally just see a Captain and a second in command (in that episode Levitt and Filby are both Commanders).

    I think Lieutenant Patrick in A Distant Star is described as both the XO and the navigation officer of the Cortez, so maybe this is something that's unique to Explorer ships. It's not stated whether he's also second in command, but he's the one the Captain talks to during the emergency.

    I don't think it's ever stated whether Major Ryan, who takes command of General Hague's ship in Severed Dreams, was originally its second in command or just a ranking officer who happened to be along for the ride when Hague was killed. The guy under him is a Lieutenant, I think, but like everyone else on the ship he could just have received an instant promotion..

    I don't think it's ever made clear who the third in command of the Excalibur is.

    I appreciate that isn't getting to the root of your question. I suspect there might be more on this in the novels, as I remember, the B-plot of the Shadow Within is about Sheridan's first getting to grips with being Captain of the Agammemnon and having trouble with the officers under him, but I haven't read it for a long time..
    Last edited by RMcD; 08-09-2007, 09:32 AM.

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  • nova
    replied
    Okay guys, you're kind of missing my question for the most part.

    Captain, Commander, Major... none of that matters to me. I'm talking about Commanding Officer, Executive Officer, Nav Officer, Head of Security, etc. etc. I'm not talking about RANK necessarily. I'm asking, what's their job? On a ship not a station so Major Atumbe being the off shift commander doesn't really count.

    I'm thinking a captain, a first officer, and an executive officer would probably work if the exec is just the paperwork person.

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  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    Run a search for an older thread on this topic. Tons of discussion there.

    General
    Colonel
    Captain
    Commander
    Lieutenant Commander
    Lieutenant
    Major
    Move major to the same level as commander.

    I've stopped thinking about such questions since I watched Dr. Beverly Crusher command the Enterprise-D in a ST:TNG-episode...!
    She is more than a staff officer with the commander rank. She is a combat officer.

    Now, what didn't make sense was when Chief O'Brien, Ensign Ro and others put Deanna Troi in charge in "Disaster," as she was only a staff lieutenant-commander at the time. She got combat certified and promoted later in the series.

    And yes, a lot of the times an executive officer is a paperwork person.

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  • Morden
    replied
    I've stopped thinking about such questions since I watched Dr. Beverly Crusher command the Enterprise-D in a ST:TNG-episode...!

    As for B5, the structure might be something like:

    General
    Colonel
    Captain
    Commander
    Lieutenant Commander
    Lieutenant
    Major
    ... and so on.

    I assume that JMS didn't spend much of a thought on the military ranking structure during the beginning of B5, so he adjusted some things during the story progress. That leads to the assumption that Earth Force uses a kind of a blended, combined rank system which cannot be compared 1:1 with any of today's military.

    Oh, one thing: Can we please avoid another "where do the once-mentioned Admirals fit in here?"-discussion...?

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  • OmahaStar
    replied
    Originally posted by AaronB View Post
    Zog what? Zog yes? Zog no?
    It made people laugh. That's all that matters.

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  • AaronB
    replied
    Originally posted by OmahaStar View Post
    The next in charge after the XO? That's the Zog.
    Zog what? Zog yes? Zog no?

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  • nova
    replied
    Originally posted by vacantlook View Post
    I don't know what it can shed on the topic of command structure and rank, but there is one point -- I don't remember which episode -- that Ivanova instructs the C&C staff to have Major Atumbe take over command of C&C while she goes elsewhere to deal with something. I imagine that he would have some position in the progression of the command structure, I don't know if it'd be 3rd or what though.
    Right, it is assumed that Major Atumbe is the 3rd on the station. But what's his position? And I think ship structure is a little different.

    Zog... right...

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