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  • #16
    Originally posted by JPH3 View Post
    Not having seen TLT yet (but IÆm a sucker for spoilers), I canÆt address the æCaptain vs. ColonelÆ reasoning regarding LochleyÆs change with any authority, but I can address the present-day rank structure in the US military so hopefully this will be helpful.

    In the present-day US military, a naval Captain and a Air Force, Army or Marine Colonel are equivalent ranks; they're all pay grade O-6 - one level below flag (or General) officer rank. Similarly, a naval Commander and an AF, Army or Marine Lieutenant Colonel are equivalents - pay grade O-5. Naval Lieutenant Commanders and AF, Army or Marine Majors are all O-4s; naval Lieutenants and Air Force, Army or Marine Captains are O-3s; Naval Lieutenants (Junior Grade) are the same as AF, Army or Marine First Lieutenants - pay grade O-2 and naval Ensigns are the same as Second Lieutenants in the other services - pay grade O-1.

    In the original series, Sheridan is the equivalent of a present-day naval Captain; an O-6. Ivanova starts off as a Lieutenant Commander - an O-4 - but is later promoted to full Commander - an O-5. As Sheridan's Executive Officer she does just what the duty title states - she's in charge of seeing that Sheridan's decisions and Earthforce policy are 'executed'. In other words, she oversees the day-to-day activities aboard B5 and is the Chief of Staff. Major Atumbe - an O-4 - is likely the station's Operations Officer.

    I think itÆs possible that some time in the intervening years between the end of the series and the TLT timeframe EarthGov made a policy determination that the B5 station (which isnÆt a ship) no longer fell under the ænavalÆ arm of Earthforce but wanted to keep Lochley in command. In such a case, they mightÆve offered her a choice between being laterally redesignated a Colonel or being reassigned. B5 was never a Flag officer command û Earthforce wasnÆt going to promote Lochley to Commanding General of a facility previously deemed appropriate for an O-6, particularly since the station was of lesser importance after the ISA took most of the diplomatic purpose of the station to Minbar.

    V/R
    John

    So if I followed all that correctly, your answer to the question I asked is "operations officer"? would that be the same on a ship? what does an operations officer do exactly?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by nova View Post
      So if I followed all that correctly, your answer to the question I asked is "operations officer"? would that be the same on a ship? what does an operations officer do exactly?
      I'm in the Army, not the Navy, but my understanding is that in both services the Operations Officer (called the 'S3' on an Army battalion or brigade staff) is the senior 'pure' staff officer and is usually third in the chain of command after the CO and XO. The other primary staff sections are Personnel (S1), Intelligence (S2) and Logistics (S4) and, depending on the size of the staff, there can be additional ones to suit the situation. The Operations officer, however, will always be the senior staff officer because the Operations section bleeds over into everything the other sections do.

      Aboard a ship, some of the functions above are (I believe) divided between various departments and divisions in addition to the staff, but each will have an Officer in Charge (OIC) and a Chief Petty Officer (CPO - a senior noncommissioned officer in the Navy) responsible for running them.

      S3's have three primary functions - orchestrating the details of an organization's daily operations (overseen by the XO), planning future activities, and ensuring that an organization's personnel are meeting their individual and collective training targets. In combat, the S3 is located in the Tactical Operations Center (the TOC) so he or she can handle coordination and communication between subordinate units, adjacent units and the staff, freeing the Commander up so he or she can concentrate on the immediate fight.

      Aboard a ship, I believe the Navy's S3-equivalent hangs out in the Combat Information Center (the CIC - where all the main comms links are) rather than on the bridge. That may be why we never saw Major Atumbe .

      V/R
      John

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      • #18
        *beats head against wall*

        Why couldn't Joe just pick a structure and stick with it? I realize that when the EA and EF were formed, ideas and hierarchies were drawn form military forces all over Earth. I get that, I do. *bows to JMS* But for the sake of everyone's sanity... This B5 universe makes my head feel ready to explode sometimes.

        I actually also noticed today the continuity issue with when Ivanova joined Earthforce. It seems her mother died when she was 10 (which means she never actually knew her OFF the sleepers), her brother a year later, and then she joined EarthForce. Which would have made her all of about 11 or 12... No wonder Andrei didn't approve.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by nova View Post
          *beats head against wall*

          Why couldn't Joe just pick a structure and stick with it? I realize that when the EA and EF were formed, ideas and hierarchies were drawn form military forces all over Earth. I get that, I do. *bows to JMS* But for the sake of everyone's sanity... This B5 universe makes my head feel ready to explode sometimes.
          Torturing your head is not worth it, because even the Great Maker obviously didn't torture his head too much when he thought about Earthforce's ranking system.
          Well, I can live with what we are given in the show.

          Originally posted by nova View Post
          I actually also noticed today the continuity issue with when Ivanova joined Earthforce. It seems her mother died when she was 10 (which means she never actually knew her OFF the sleepers), her brother a year later, and then she joined EarthForce. Which would have made her all of about 11 or 12... No wonder Andrei didn't approve.
          Man, I never realized that one, that would be a seriuos continuity glitch. Can anyone help us out here?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by nova View Post
            I actually also noticed today the continuity issue with when Ivanova joined Earthforce. It seems her mother died when she was 10 (which means she never actually knew her OFF the sleepers), her brother a year later, and then she joined EarthForce. Which would have made her all of about 11 or 12... No wonder Andrei didn't approve.
            Okay, I found where Susan tells Talia that her mother was on sleepers for ten years and in 'The Long Night' she tells Sheridan that she was "ten...maybe eleven" when her mother committed suicide. But in 'In the Beginning' Susan was definitely older than that:

            INT. INTERVIEW ROOM
            A very spare room, white walls, a desk and two chairs, where a young SUSAN IVANOVA, age 18, is waiting as Ganya enters.
            She also asks Ganya for his support when she signs up for Earthforce "in a few months".

            Which does beg the question of how Susan managed to have telepathic contact with her mother any time other than infancy but I can't remember where she says that she joined Earthforce the year after her mother's death. In 'And Now for a Word' she tells the reporter that after her brother's death she felt that she had to finish what he'd started but that the war was over before she saw any action.

            AH! I found it. In 'TKO' Rabbi Koslov tells Sinclair:
            A great tragedy. And one for which I believe Susan blamed her father. A year later when her brother was killed in the Minbari War, Susan chose to join Eathforce against Andrei's wishes and the rift between them became greater still.
            So that's definitely a continuity error...unless Rabbi Koslov made a mistake . Well, JMS always said that he kept the continuity in his head and since he didn't write 'TKO' he probably forgot that line. The amazing thing is that there are so few of these.

            Jan
            "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Morden View Post
              Torturing your head is not worth it, because even the Great Maker obviously didn't torture his head too much when he thought about Earthforce's ranking system.
              Actually one of the things I like best about B5 is that the minutiae concerning things like technology, alien societies and military organisation are left so vague.

              All the background detail is just coherent enough that it serves the story, looks cool and doesn't fall apart under a certain level of scrutiny, but beyond that you are free to use your own imagination to fill in the gaps.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Jan View Post
                Okay, I found where Susan tells Talia that her mother was on sleepers for ten years and in 'The Long Night' she tells Sheridan that she was "ten...maybe eleven" when her mother committed suicide. But in 'In the Beginning' Susan was definitely older than that:



                She also asks Ganya for his support when she signs up for Earthforce "in a few months".

                Which does beg the question of how Susan managed to have telepathic contact with her mother any time other than infancy but I can't remember where she says that she joined Earthforce the year after her mother's death. In 'And Now for a Word' she tells the reporter that after her brother's death she felt that she had to finish what he'd started but that the war was over before she saw any action.

                AH! I found it. In 'TKO' Rabbi Koslov tells Sinclair:


                So that's definitely a continuity error...unless Rabbi Koslov made a mistake . Well, JMS always said that he kept the continuity in his head and since he didn't write 'TKO' he probably forgot that line. The amazing thing is that there are so few of these.

                Jan

                The Rabbi is an old man and of course he could have made a mistake, (but can even his memory turn 6 or 7 years into 1??). I would dismiss the whole thing quite easily on those grounds and that TKO was not written by JMS if this involved only this episode. I don't remember the "maybe eleven" part in the Long Night. I'll have to go check.

                The odd thing with the In The Beginning script (which is what you're quoting, right?) is also incorrect. She was 17. Any older and the war would have been over before she signed on (which she states was 2247, the last year of the war). Splitting hairs, I know. :0)

                I checked the big B5 timeline on the net. Looks like they based all their info on this on season 1.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by nova View Post
                  Splitting hairs, I know. :0)
                  Exactly. For the most part I miss this sort of thing because it simply has nothing to do with the story. Same thing with military ranks. I don't notice them because all I really need to know is who's higher or lower in rank than our characters. Other than that, the ranks are immaterial.

                  Jan
                  "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jan View Post
                    Exactly. For the most part I miss this sort of thing because it simply has nothing to do with the story. Same thing with military ranks. I don't notice them because all I really need to know is who's higher or lower in rank than our characters. Other than that, the ranks are immaterial.

                    Jan

                    Actually, I'd say Ivanova's past has a lot to do with the story. The military ranks I asked about for a specific purpose. When I'm actually watching the show, I could care less.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by nova View Post
                      Actually, I'd say Ivanova's past has a lot to do with the story.
                      Sure, her past does matter -- a lot. But it's *what* happened that's important, not when. As long as we know that she remembers feeling her mother's love mind-to-mind it doesn't matter how old she was when she felt it. That's my only point.

                      Jan
                      "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Yes, this is true. However, if she entered the EF at like 12... making Malcolm Biggs a big time cradle robber on top of his overall creepiness, that becomes a slight problem...

                        Does it REALLY matter in the grand scheme of things? No not really. But it's awfully funny to think about.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by nova View Post
                          Yes, this is true. However, if she entered the EF at like 12... making Malcolm Biggs a big time cradle robber on top of his overall creepiness, that becomes a slight problem...

                          Does it REALLY matter in the grand scheme of things? No not really. But it's awfully funny to think about.
                          I guess that particular sentiment is applicable to ever thread on this and every fan forum.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Number6 View Post
                            I guess that particular sentiment is applicable to ever thread on this and every fan forum.
                            Indeed. Afterall, if you can't laugh and have fun. What the heck is the point?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by nova View Post
                              Yes, this is true. However, if she entered the EF at like 12... making Malcolm Biggs a big time cradle robber on top of his overall creepiness, that becomes a slight problem...
                              Eeew!

                              Does it REALLY matter in the grand scheme of things? No not really. But it's awfully funny to think about.
                              WHAT?!?!?!You mean that the Universe doesn't revolve around JMSNews.com???

                              I'm crushed...simply crushed...

                              Jan
                              "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Jan View Post
                                Eeew!

                                Jan
                                Thought you would like that.

                                Originally posted by Jan View Post

                                WHAT?!?!?!You mean that the Universe doesn't revolve around JMSNews.com???

                                I'm crushed...simply crushed...

                                Jan
                                Hahaha... I mean.. um... sure it does Jan. Sometimes when I point something out just to find some humor, fans can take it a little more seriously than I expect... get all defensive like I'm attacking the Great Maker or something. In truth, I think I have a good enough idea of his personality to know he'd get a chuckle out of it too. Little Ivanova in uniform... ordering people around... lol It's also fun to ask him difficult questions, just to see the creative explanation he always manages to come up with. Geniuses... they can drive ya crazy...

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