First Ones, Middle Races, Younger Races. Who is who?

[Lord Scotty]

I know the First Ones are the following.....

Lorien and his race
The Tri's who form the Traid
The Shadows
The Walkers
The Mindriders
The Torvalus
The Kirshiac

Who are the Middle Races....

Who are the Younger Races....

Regards,

Lord Scotty

[Radhil]

I have no idea what you mean by Middle Races - and that makes Younger Races pretty much everyone else.

[circularREASON]

Re: First Ones, Middle Races, Younger Races. Who is who?

Originally posted by Lord Scotty
I know the First Ones are the following.....

Lorien and his race
The Tri's who form the Traid
The Shadows
The Walkers
The Mindriders
The Torvalus
The Kirshiac

Who are the Middle Races....

Who are the Younger Races....

Regards,

Lord Scotty

Ah...


I think I get what you mean.

That would make the following Middle (?)

HUMANS
MINBARI
NARN
CENTAURI
DRAZI

ETC.................

could the lowest form - ie the ones who would follow humans minbari etc....

VINDRIZI
KEEPERS

just a thought..

( I need an asprin )

[grumbler]

I haven't heard the term "Middle Races" before, and clearly humans, Narn, Centauri, the League, etc are the Younger Races, but if the term had any meaning I would guess that the Middle Races were those that fought in the Great War of the thirteenth century, of the Earth Calender. I have heard of only the Minbari, Ikarans, Markab (who may not have actually had spaceflight), and think also maybe the Drakh and the other Shadow pawn.

[jal]

"Middle Races"

it`s also a holdover from the Babylon 5 gaming community;

Ancients, Middle races and Young races

Minbari would be middle, Human, Narn, Cenauri, Drazi, Markab would be young races.

levels were allocated on the basis of physical, technological advancement and stuff like that.

sorry about that, my inner geek escaped for a minute there.

[RCmodeler]

IMHO if humans, minbari, narn, et cetera are "middle races" than the "younger races" can only be one thing....

...the algae floating on some new-born world...

.....waiting to evolve to sentience. This algae, 5 million years from now, will be the ones that the Humans/Minbari Encounter Suits help guide to independence.

.

Also Lorien is not in the group "first ones". He is in the group "First Being" because he came before all things...perhaps the result of the big bang.

Troy

[Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt]

I've pondered some of the same ideas. Although I've heard the words "millions of years" mentioned in B5, I never heard "billions". Big difference between millions and billions, especially if billions is plural!

Sorry if it's unpopular, but my take on the issue is that Lorien, Vorlons, Shadows, etc. are part of what I refer to as - for lack of a better term - the "current batch" of first ones. Others may have come before that have been gone so long they left no trace.

Here's my reason. Some years ago I had the great fortune of having an extended conversation with Jack (King) Kirby, one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) comic book artist, writer, and creater of all time. He said that he firmly believed (not envisioned - he BELIEVED) that over the 4+ billion years the earth has existed, uncounted civilizations have risen and fallen. Over the eons their existance has been wiped out, with no trace left. This idea has always intrigued me. And lately after watching many documentaries about the reign of the dinosaurs, I've begun to wonder about what has come and gone with no trace left, or what has left only a tiny trace that has not yet been found. Since Lorien only says "millions of years" when referring to the first ones, that seems to leave a whole lot of years uncounted in the 12+ billion the universe has existed. Seems perfectly within the realm of possibillty that the Universe could create others that have come and gone over those uncounted billions of years.

Just my take on the issue, purely speculation. But isn't this kind of conversation more fun than "you have a hole in your mind" for the 102nd time?

"honey, where are my car keys?"
"you have a hole in your mind"
"okay that was funny the first hundred times, but..."
See what I mean? hehe

[SpooRancher]

Sentience First Ones and "Third Age"

Sentient Races are automatically "middle races"? I don't think so.

This is my own, not so humble opinion. If you believe differently, that's fine. But, I felt I needed to throw in my own $.02.

I think the division into three levels corresponds to the three "ages" referred to in B5 lore, specifically spelled out by Sheridan after the departure of the Vorlons, Shadows and remaining first ones beyond the Rim.

Younger races are the ones who are being manipulated and have no way to break that cycle yet. They are the least powerful of the sentient races, who are constantly at the whim of more powerful races. Their lack of power may be due to lack of numbers, technology, or knowledge (same thing?).

Middle races are being manipulated as Humans, Minbari, Centauri, Drazi, Narns and so on were manipulated by the Shadows. They may think they are serving their own purposes, but in reality are being subverted to the whim of "first ones".

Older races are the ones who have truly moved on into the "Third Age" where they control their own destiny. They have thrown off the influence of Vorlons and Shadows. They are in charge of their own existence.

To become "First Ones", one must first achieve "older races" status.

At the end of the Babylon 5 series proper, the Humans are pretty much an "older race". So are the Minbari. The Narn? Debateable. They still don't control their own destiny, and have, much in the way Londo admitted the Centauri were trying to do at the beginning of the series, "attached themselves to the Shark". The Centauri definitely are in the "middle race" status, as they are under the control of the Drakh.

Are the Drakh an "older race"? Perhaps. Perhaps, yes, in that they are doing the manipulating, and perhaps, no, in that they still are carrying out the goals of the Shadows, even though the Shadows are long gone.

I would basically say that most of the races in the Alliance are "middle races" because they are still allowing their destiny to be determined by others, even though it is through the Alliance.

Basically, Humans have taken a similar place to the Vorlons, but are not exactly "like" the Vorlons. Humanity has never been willing to follow such a strict authoritarian style (nobody who has ever tried has succeeded for long). Humans have always walked a line between freedom and authority. That is why, IMNSHO, Humans were the key to defeating the Shadows permanently rather than temporarily. Humans know that there is a line between Chaos and Order that must be walked. Minbari had always favored order. Humans knew that the choice between the two does not have to relate to EVERY decision.

<ducks head to avoid flame-balls>

[snodman]

I'm with Grumbler on this. The middle races would be those that were around 1,000 years (OK, 700 years) ago fighting the shadows back then. Basically the Mimbari and the Drakh (races that had had access to Vorlon and Shadow technology for some time by the start of the third age). The younger races would be the Humans, Centauri, Narn, Drazi, etc.

[RCmodeler]

I disagree. In the scale of the universe, 1000 years is nothing. I think when you categorize, you need to think in terms of *billions* of years:

Lorien - same age as the universe - 20 billion years

First Ones - Shadows, Vorlons, etc) - 10-15 billion years old

Middle Races - Humans, Minbari, Narn, Drazi, etc - ~5 billion years old (started as algae and moved upward)

Younger Races - those that do not yet exist... those that are merely green goop on some distant shore of a brand-new world. 5 billion years from now, they will be exploring space for the first time.

.

BTW, if you like to think on a grand scale, read Isaac Asimov's "The Last Question". It spans from the present day, all the way to the end of time (trillions of years in the future) when humans walk the stars like giants. I read that story 20 years ago, and it still stands in my mind.

Originally posted by Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt
He said that he firmly believed (not envisioned - he BELIEVED) that over the 4+ billion years the earth has existed, uncounted civilizations have risen and fallen.

I doubt that. If ancient cultures of other sentient species existed, we would find remains like the pyramids. Or bones like the dinosaurs/pre-mammals. Such things do not exist.

As for humans, their history is plotted. Homo Genus arose in south Africa, gradually increased in numbers, and then founded the first civilizations ~15,000 years ago in river deltas: Egypt, Babylon, India-Ganges, and eastern China.

[Natxomann]

I think that these are the basic categories (and the distinctions between every level)
- Young races : Those races that have not achieved yet a full potential , both in the technological and sociological fields . They are still evolving on those fields and they are very vulnerable to manipulation from other , more advanced races , like the first ones . Their real knowledge of physics (specially those of the hyperspace realm) is extremely limited when compared to the first ones , and they utilize "conventional" , widely employed technologies (in more or less advanced forms) , from plasma or ion engines to "low tech" magnetogravimetric drives , sensors that operate in the electromagnetic spectrum , relatively simple tachyon communications at best (that need to employ hyperspace relays to operate) , conventional forms of energy generation , based mainly on fusion and / or antimatter reactors , and energy weapons based on (relatively) basic physic's principles (lasers , plasma , particle beams , etc) . They also suffer from time to time some social convulsions , due to the fact that their social development is not yet complete . Minbari , Humans , Narn , Centauri and virtually all races seen in the B5 series , other than the first ones are young races .

- Middle races : Former young races that have developed their own specific technological "tree" , in the form of technologies that younger races would consider exotic :Organic ships and / or systems , self-sufficient energy plants , tachyon-based sensors and communication systems that need not relays , energy weapons based on uncommon or exotic physic's principles , advanced (or full) knowledge (at least at a theoretical level) of hyperspace's physics , etc . They also should have completed their sociological evolution , and as result of this , they should be at least almost fully impervious to manipulations from other races . In essence , a middle race should be one that has reached an advanced and highly stable technological and sociological plateau . They are not yet as advanced and powerful as the first ones , but they are a power that even those respect . No identifiable middle race was seen in the series , although the inscrutable and mysterious Soul Hunters could be good candidates .

- First Ones : Former Middle races that have reached the top levels of their technological and social developments . Their technologies are based on scientific principles that seem arcane (and usually extremely cryptic) knowledge to the younger races , their knowledge of the physic's laws both of our universe and of the hyperspace surpass anything imagined by the less advanced races , and they can navigate through hyperspace without navigational aids , perhaps possessing the ability of passing from one normal space to hyperspace (and viceversa) without need of a jumppoint vortex , although this could be debatable (as in the case of Vorlons) . In few words , these races have reached their maximum technological , physical and social development levels , and they are absolutely impervious to the manipulations of other races , even other First Ones .

Some races/factions are a conundrum , like the Drakh or the Technologies. Are they middle races , or simply young races that became servants of one particular branch of the Firs Ones?.
In the case of both TMs and Drakh , they simply seem to be young races (or people from several YRs) that received access to a few advanced and exotic technologies from their masters , in exchange for their services (Drakh) or potential allegiance (TMs).
Just my humble (and slightly confused) 2 cents .

[Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt]

If ancient cultures of other sentient species existed, we would find remains like the pyramids. Or bones like the dinosaurs/pre-mammals. Such things do not exist.

Do not exist? How do you know for sure? Personally I don't know. But I prefer to keep an open mind. Don't forget that many, MANY folks staunchly refused to believe that dinosaurs had feathers, until they found fossilized remains of feathered dinosaurs! Like the tiny flying raptor that was recently found, with feathers almost exactly like a modern bird. And we're only talking a few hundred million years here, not even close to 14 billion.

According to the Science Channel, we have found very little from before the Jurrasic era. Our planet has existed far longer. It is a scientific fact that the continents continue to drift, at about the same speed your fingernails grow. Also according to the Science channel, such continental drift causes radical changes to everything...temporate zones, continental shelves, EVERYTHING. Basically, the surface of the Earth is being broken down and rebuilt on a continual basis. And lastly according to the Science channel, this continual "rehashing" of the surface means that extremely ancient artifacts are very difficult, if not impossible to find.

The only thing I remember Lorien saying about his age was that he was old before the molecules on our planet came together to form land and sea and bird and fish. Since the Earth is 4+ billion years old, that would mean he was...how old? 5 billion? 6 billion? 7 billion? Still leaves many billions of years for the Universe to create other life. I'll continue to stand with Jack Kirby, who took this vision and parlayed it into a legendary career in the media.

Another. In the B5 universe, most of the other first ones' existance was largely unknown to the younger races (except for Sigma 957 Walkers). Why was there no trace of these races? They certainly existed.

As for humans, their history is plotted. Homo Genus arose in south Africa, gradually increased in numbers, and then founded the first civilizations ~15,000 years ago in river deltas

Yes, but according to the Cosmic Calendar, the entire evolution of homo sapiens has only existed for the last 30 seconds of the last minute of the last hour of the last day of the "cosmic year"...barely a blink in the grand scope of things. Still leaves a lot of years unaccounted for.

[grumbler]

B-TD,

Remember that things take time. There arguably weren't enough heavy elements in the first X billion years of the universe's life to sustain large planets and long-lived stars, because such elements hadn't been forged yet. Thus, solar systems wouldn't have persisted long enough for evolution to generate complex technical species.

As you say, there certainly are enough billions of years since heavy elements became common for there to have been several generations of species, but I think when JMS says that Lorien was the First One we should believe him.

All this "Middle Races" stuff sounds like a convention for a gaming system, though, so I don't attach much stock to it.

[jal]

All this "Middle Races" stuff sounds like a convention for a gaming system, though, so I don't attach much stock to it.

that`s because it is, it`s just a system to pigenhole all of the races and has little or nothing to do with B5.

i don`t worry about it, neither should anyone else.

[RCmodeler]

Originally posted by Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt
According to the Science Channel, we have found very little from before the Jurrasic era. Our planet has existed far longer.

That's because there's nothing to find. Prior to the Jurassic, the planet was covered with plants and amoeba-like organisms. And prior to that, the planet was too hot. The only "civilization" that has EVER existed on Earth is the human civilization.

Originally posted by Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt
The only thing I remember Lorien saying about his age was that he was old before the molecules on our planet came together to form land and sea and bird and fish. Since the Earth is 4+ billion years old, that would mean he was...how old? 5 billion? 6 billion? 7 billion?

Yeah, but he *also* said that (1) he was in existence when the Shadows/Vorlons were nothing and (2) he sprang into being instantly. Since the Shadows/Vorlons are likely 10-15 billion years old, being part of the first generation of stars, I surmise that Lorien is much, much older.

I suspect Lorien is a product of the Big Bang (20 billion years ago).

Originally posted by Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt
Still leaves many billions of years for the Universe to create other life. I'll continue to stand with Jack Kirby, who took this vision and parlayed it into a legendary career in the media.

I thought Kirby was talking about the EARTH, not the universe?

Originally posted by Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt

As for humans, their history is plotted. Homo Genus arose in south Africa, gradually increased in numbers, and then founded the first civilizations ~15,000 years ago in river deltas

Yes, but according to the Cosmic Calendar, the entire evolution of homo sapiens has only existed for the last 30 seconds...

Which does not change or refute my original point. ON EARTH, there are no other sentients except humans. Please read the *context* of my message.

I don't like people who nitpick every little piece of my messages. Read the context and the *intent* of my statements, before you ip them apart. My statement was clearly in reference to the EARTH and its civilizations.
Troy