Group Watch: Dust To Dust

[SmileOfTheShadow]

A very punny title, considering. Londo learns that his position on Babylon 5 was originally a joke..which, he was kind of a joke in the first season, so that makes sense. No real shock tehre. We also learn about Narn telepathy history, and how they were wiped out.

Bester returns, and he's fighting for the good guys this time, or so we think! Of course, always having his own sinister motives with that nice twist at the end. Makes me want to have a whole series just about Psi-cops.

This episode really is integral in G'Kar's transformation as G'Kar seeks revenge on Mollari, ripping out a LOT of information from his mind and being pretty darn brutal. Again, we see Vorlons manipulating people as Kosh instigates that change within G'Kar. A lot of Vorlon stuff is "for our own good" and turns out for the better...but how ethical is that? Do you think the ends justify the means here? I think that's the most important question in this episode.

[moreorless]

What I like most about B5 is that the really critical scenes like G'Kars vision here almost always live up to their importance and stick in the mind.

I'd disagree that Kosh's actions were typically Vorlon, there wasnt any trickery in the vision just an honiest message to try and help someone move in the right direction.

[SmileOfTheShadow]

It's still manipulation. Kosh made G'Kar think his father was speaking to him through implanting thoughts into his mind. That's trickery if I've ever heard of it.

[RMcD]

Not to mention masquerading as G'Quan.. Pretty devious if you ask me!

[moreorless]

It's still manipulation. Kosh made G'Kar think his father was speaking to him through implanting thoughts into his mind. That's trickery if I've ever heard of it.

The use of his fathers image felt more like a statement that mere tricky to me, going back to the source of his hatred for the centauri and forcing him to look at his choices again. I certainly got the sense G'Kar realised he was speaking to something other than the spirit of his father pretty early on.

Typical Vorlon actions were IMHO more bare faced lies and outright orders.

[Hal_10000]

Kosh vs. Vorlons

IMHO, Kosh was a bit different from the others Vorlons, as we later find out in brutal fashion. Kosh could be deceptive and occasionally forceful (think of his killing of Deathwalker or the coming confrontation with Sheridan), but he was more interested in persuasion. As Lyta later says, Kosh cared for the younger races, was sympathetic to them. We'll later find out the majority of the Vorlons, represented in Kosh II, are far more arrogant and prefer just obedience.

Bester comes off even better in this episode as the guy you love to hate. His interrogation of the smuggler; the pinata conversation with Garibaldi. I just wish we'd seen him get what was coming to him on TV.

[RMcD]

Interesting, for some reason I'd always assumed that the old Narn who speaks to G'Kar is G'Quan, not his father (who we see hanging from the tree in the previous scene). I didn't think they were supposed to be the same guy.

But maybe I'm wrong, Jim Norton's character is only credited as 'Narn image'.

Also, if he is G'Kar's father, there's a trend that appears: Kosh appears as Sheridan's father later, and IIRC both Ivanova and Delenn say in Hour of the Wolf that the Shadows speak to them as their fathers (time to call in Freud, I think).

[RMcD]

We'll later find out the majority of the Vorlons, represented in Kosh II, are far more arrogant and prefer just obedience.

To be fair, I don't think we really know whether Kosh or Ulkesh (or neither) represents the typical Vorlon.

[Morden]

Well, I always got the impression that Kosh and his feelings for the younger races was special with the Vorlons, and that the rest of the Vorlons were indeed quite more arrogant and didn't really care about the other races. Remember their crusade against worlds touched by the Shadows early in season 4.

[Ulkosh]

To be fair, I don't think we really know whether Kosh or Ulkesh (or neither) represents the typical Vorlon.

SPOILERS if you've not seen Season 4/Thirdspace









Given their use of the planet killer

And their stated desire to 'Storm the gates of heaven' in Thirdspace.. i think we can guess that the Vorlons are in general far more akin to Ulkesh than Kosh.

They're bad guys.. no getting around it.. they're happy to pretend to be people's Gods (G'Lan i believe.. not G'Quan who merely wrote the book and was more of a prophet rather than a deity figure) or angels.

They are quite prepared to manipulate and mutate species and even destory any race to play their game withe the Shadows. In some ways it could be considered to make them even worse than the Shadows.

[RMcD]

(G'Lan i believe.. not G'Quan who merely wrote the book and was more of a prophet rather than a deity figure) or angels.

Just to clarify, I was referring there to the elderly Narn played by Jim Norton in the preceding scene, not the angel. Having watched it again, however, I think it's more likely that he's supposed to be G'Kar's father than G'Quan (he's wearing the same costume as the guy hanging from the tree, I think).

They are quite prepared to manipulate and mutate species and even destory any race to play their game withe the Shadows. In some ways it could be considered to make them even worse than the Shadows.

It's Kosh, not Ulkesh, who introduces in this episode the notion that 'some must be sacrificed if all are to be saved'.

[Ulkosh]

Just to clarify, I was referring there to the elderly Narn played by Jim Norton in the preceding scene, not the angel. Having watched it again, however, I think it's more likely that he's supposed to be G'Kar's father than G'Quan (he's wearing the same costume as the guy hanging from the tree, I think).



It's Kosh, not Ulkesh, who introduces in this episode the notion that 'some must be sacrificed if all are to be saved'.

I think its meant to be his father too.

Your second point ? What are you trying to say here?
I never made any distinction between Kosh or Ulkesh. It doesn't matter which anyway.

The Vorlons had been manipulating and mutating the younger species for millenia. Not just Kosh or Ulkesh.. the lot of them.

The Vorlons thought of themselves as Gods.

This 'some must be sacrificed...etc' was nothing new to them. As far back as Midnight on the Firing line Kosh was already talking of letting the Narn and/or Centauri die. He didn't care then and he didn't care now. Its standard operating procedure for the Vorlons and all part of the manipulation and the game whether its Kosh or Ulkesh.
Indeed they weren't even interested in saving lives only ideology.. so it doesn't even mean what G'Kar thought it meant.

The fact that he took the revelation to make himself a better person is interesting in that the vision was meant as manipulation.. the change to G'Kar's character was coincidental to Kosh's intent.

Simply put...the Vorlons were pretending to be Gods and they came to believe it. Though it does seem that Kosh formed some personal attachments.

[RMcD]

Your second point ? What are you trying to say here?
I never made any distinction between Kosh or Ulkesh. It doesn't matter which anyway.

Given their use of the planet killer

And their stated desire to 'Storm the gates of heaven' in Thirdspace.. i think we can guess that the Vorlons are in general far more akin to Ulkesh than Kosh.

To be fair, I don't think we really know whether Kosh or Ulkesh (or neither) represents the typical Vorlon.

..........

[Morden]

As far back as Midnight on the Firing line Kosh was already talking of letting the Narn and/or Centauri die. He didn't care then and he didn't care now. Its standard operating procedure for the Vorlons and all part of the manipulation and the game whether its Kosh or Ulkesh.
Indeed they weren't even interested in saving lives only ideology..

I thought that was also a nod to what JMS stated much later, when he said that the Narn and Centauri probably won't die out, but but never achieve first-one-state.
As for Kosh, when he talks to Sheridan in his dream (as Sheridans father) some episodes later, there seems to have been some character development in Kosh, too. He understood what the Vorlons did wrong, and he now wished to help the younger races. That's also the reason for him fighting Ulkesh in season 4, he is fighting for Sheridan and the younger races then.

[Ulkosh]

RMcD

I see you're not getting what i mean... its my own fault for rushing off posts at work and not taking enough time to express myself clearly... let me attempt a clarification:

I think that ALL the Vorlons are users. SO in that respect it doesn't matter whether its Kosh or Ulkesh. They are all manipulators and abusers.

Kosh merely has the 'more friendly face' and as i said possibly some personal attachments. The rest of the Vorlons.. as far as we have seen have no obvious personal attachments to any members of the younger races. And as such would appear to be more like Ulkesh, who seems to not hold any affection.

Indeed in the canon trilogies it is made clear that the other Vorlons consider Kosh to be soft.. 'implying' they are unsympathetic more like Ulkesh.

But thats not really the point, since even the 'soft' Vorlon is a user and abuser of the younger races.

Do you see what i mean?