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Two TKO And Grail Observations - Errors

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  • Two TKO And Grail Observations - Errors

    Hello.

    Re-Watching B5 from the beginning like many of you. Got to TKO and noticed something subtle that may have been a sly commentary re:Star Trek.

    In the very beginning of the ep - two characters are shown arm wrestling. I'd swear that the one on the left is a pale Klingon. Can anyone else look at this and voice your opinion? Oh - guess which Alien won?.....

    The second is MUCH more defined and given how hard it smacks against established Minbari background it's surprising it was left in.

    In Grail - when Lenier is talking about Minbari culture - he says there are *TWO* Casts in Minbari life. *TWO* - when I heard that on my first re-watch I was sure JMS would have commented on it and did not look into it any further.

    But after this time when the wife caught it - I decided to hop onto The Lurkers Guide and check JMS Speaks for that EP. No mention of it, none. Which - I find very strange?

    Was he not wanting to draw attention to a BIG Cannon mistake that slipped past everyone?

    Just two things I've noticed ( or in the case of the Klingon - THINK I've noticed )

    Fred Out
    I am a man of a not insignificant build. Standing 6'1, 205 lbs with a good more of that muscle than chub. Aged some 36 years, I can - if I choose - put on an imposing aura. There are - however - 22 words that can reduce me to a quivering mass of weeping tears. A pitiful semblance of a 5 year old boy who just watched his puppy get ran over in the street. Those words? - As for Delenn, every morning for as long as she lived, Delenn got up before dawn and watched the sun come up

  • #2
    Originally posted by FredScuttle View Post
    The second is MUCH more defined and given how hard it smacks against established Minbari background it's surprising it was left in.

    In Grail - when Lenier is talking about Minbari culture - he says there are *TWO* Casts in Minbari life. *TWO* - when I heard that on my first re-watch I was sure JMS would have commented on it and did not look into it any further.

    But after this time when the wife caught it - I decided to hop onto The Lurkers Guide and check JMS Speaks for that EP. No mention of it, none. Which - I find very strange?

    Was he not wanting to draw attention to a BIG Cannon mistake that slipped past everyone?
    If is was a mistake...

    Remember the lines Delenn spoke as she re-established the Grey Council in "Moments of Transition?" "You had forgotten the Worker caste, hadn't you?" she tells the Warrior and Religious Caste members. So, you see, this was simply setting up the later dialogue.

    Because it isn't possible that in JMS's initial concept (and thus in the outline given to Christy Marx) there were, in fact, only the two castes. Nope. Cannot happen. It was just a planned mistake to set up later dialogue. That's my story and I am sticking to it.
    I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by grumbler
      Remember the lines Delenn spoke as she re-established the Grey Council in "Moments of Transition?" "You had forgotten the Worker caste, hadn't you?" she tells the Warrior and Religious Caste members. So, you see, this was simply setting up the later dialogue.
      Just to add to this statement, IMHO I always assumed that the worker caste was the *default caste a Minbar falls in to if they do not choose a military or religious career. Kind of like the real world, but in this case 1/3 of the planetÆs population making a choice to be in one of the other castes for life.

      But, of course that is not set in stone, because in Season one ôLegaciesö the corpse of the Minbar leader was cremated by Delenn and ordered Neroon to keep the events of his disappearance a secretà Note the comment when she states that this military leader was from the religious caste and joined the Warrior during the Earth-Monbar war...

      So it is possible that nothing else was needed to explain the LennierÆs statement of two castes in Minbari culture, because he falls under Delenn's comment of people forgeting the Worker caste for not making a choice to serve in a more exciting and narrow minded caste.
      *I guess it sucks to be a worker bee even in Sci Fi, lol.
      "The world is a dangerous place---not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it" --Albert Einstein

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      • #4
        Originally posted by rallytbk View Post
        Note the comment when she states that this military leader was from the religious caste and joined the Warrior during the Earth-Monbar war...
        In the same episode Neroon points out that Branmer was 'warrior caste, by right of his father' to which Delenn replies 'and religious caste by right of his mother. You know which takes precedence.'

        It seems Branmer's change of caste might have been a special case rather than something that any member of Minbari society was able to do.

        Incidentally, Branmer must rank as the least Minbari-sounding Minbari name to appear anywhere in the series.

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        • #5
          Everynody forgets the Workercaste!
          "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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          • #6
            JMS did talk about this at some point, saying something along the lines of the worker caste being so irrelevent that lennier simply "forgot to mention" them,just like the other people were saying. It was a backtrack that was because there was an error made though. The first season was all about working out the kinks.
            Flying Sparks Web Comic - A Hero and Villain In Love. Updates on Wednesdays
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            • #7
              Originally posted by RMcD View Post

              Incidentally, Branmer must rank as the least Minbari-sounding Minbari name to appear anywhere in the series.
              I'll see you a Branmer and raise you a Drall........
              I am a man of a not insignificant build. Standing 6'1, 205 lbs with a good more of that muscle than chub. Aged some 36 years, I can - if I choose - put on an imposing aura. There are - however - 22 words that can reduce me to a quivering mass of weeping tears. A pitiful semblance of a 5 year old boy who just watched his puppy get ran over in the street. Those words? - As for Delenn, every morning for as long as she lived, Delenn got up before dawn and watched the sun come up

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Rallytbk
                I always assumed that the worker caste was the *default caste a Minbar falls in to if they do not choose a military or religious career.
                But does anyone agree that the default caste is Worker? (Pending JMSÆs final say)

                Much like todayÆs society, people tend educate themselves for the good of societyà Some become doctors, lawyers, military leaders and religious peopleà Sports has now become a sort of caste if they are not none of the aboveà While the working class create, build and support the other castes in this interesting concept already happening now.

                I wonder how many castes America has if categorized in to groups and listed for this thread.
                "The world is a dangerous place---not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it" --Albert Einstein

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by rallytbk View Post
                  But does anyone agree that the default caste is Worker? (Pending JMSÆs final say)
                  I don't. While we don't know the exact rules, remember that Delenn and Neroon disagreed abut Branmer's caste and intimated that it had something to do with heredity. Of course, as we discovered later, the "calling of your heart" could override that.

                  Jan
                  "Fascism always comes in quietly, holding a flag in one hand and a holy book in the other, inching its way in. The bugles and drums only sound after they've already taken over and believe it's too late to do anything about it." JMS Twitter Dec. 24, 2017

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                  • #10
                    I also noticed the "Two Caste" statement in Grail, but found far more interesting fodder:

                    Sinclair states to Delenn: "Aldous is our only True Seeker".
                    She replies:" Perhaps you do not know yourself as well as you think".

                    Elsewhere Sinclair talks of Aldous "to be searching for something and not find it". I believe Delenn's attitude a bit different when she asks: "Are you speaking of Aldous?". You know she is not.

                    I also believe there may be the very first "Boom" by Ivanova in this episode.

                    These are rather canonical for Christy Marx to have dropped in without a little help from JMS.
                    John Brittain
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jahkneebee
                      Sinclair states to Delenn: "Aldous is our only True Seeker".
                      She replies:" Perhaps you do not know yourself as well as you think".
                      Oh, I noticed a lot of DelennÆs comments to Jeffery Sinclair regarding the aboveà
                      One of them that comes to mind is the Stone Garden quote -

                      "Notice the waves, each moving in its own order, predictable, unchanging. But drop in a single stone and see how the pattern changes. Everything around it is altered."
                      -- Ambassador Delenn to Sinclair in Babylon 5:"The Gathering"

                      "Commander, you know everything about your stone garden. But clearly, you have not spent nearly enough time looking at it."
                      -- Ambassador Delenn to Sinclair in Babylon 5:"The Gathering"

                      Maybe it is just me, but this was the start of something being special with Jeffery Sinclair... that wanted me to read more in to his character.
                      "The world is a dangerous place---not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it" --Albert Einstein

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                      • #12
                        Wow! So I have been looking around for a place to discuss the "Two Castes" question without start another thread. Well it seems it has been mentioned in more than a few threads so I am going to put these thoughts in this one because the last post was about ten years ago.

                        I can see how when one initially watches B5 they get confused or think it is a mistake, but I always know that later one it becomes quite a big point for Delenn to point out that the Religious and Warrior Castes come up with policies the Workers have to put into effect. So for years now I have taken the "Everyone forgets the Worker Caste." stance. You know after watching Grail for the I don't know how many-eth time I realized that "Everyone one forgets the Worker Caste." is possibly a simple and true explanation, but it is more. It really establishes part of the arc for Lennier and Delenn, essentially giving them a bigotry or bias. Not in any extreme sense, but enough that when talking to someone they are trying to impress they both only mention the Religious and Warrior Caste and not the Worker Caste. The episode specifically establishes that as a general rule the Warrior and Religious Castes are at odds with each other. Naturally a person might tell someone that they are on the cool team and then mention that the cool team has a rival. And being that they see Aldus as an honored religious man who deserves their adoration they might forget to mention that the rivalry has a sort of referee. It becomes a part of Delenn and Lennier's character growth that they have to become enlightened enough to always remember the caste caught in the middle.

                        Having said the above, please someone tell me where I can find what JMS himself has said about this. I've looked and I am missing it. I know he has to have said something in one of the books or Facebook or somewhere. Even if he says it was just a mistake I like my way explaining away the mistake. The two of them are proud of their caste and they are trying to impress someone. Naturally all they might be thinking of is their caste and the opposing force to their caste. Everyone forgets the Worker Caste and Delenn and Lennier will be better people when they learn to always remember the Worker Caste.
                        Susan Ivanova, "I'll be in the car."

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