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Question regarding President Clark

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  • Hal_10000
    replied
    No Keeper

    There are two reasons I don't think President Clark had a keeper.

    1) The Keepers were a product of the Drakh, not the Shadows. It would have put him under Drakh, not Shadow control. There is zero evidence in the series that the Shadows ever used a Drakh Keeper (although their allies did, notably with Captain Jack).

    2) It would be against the Shadow's ethics to put him under their control. The Shadows always wanted people who were willing to cooperate with them. They always left people at least the illusion of freedom of choice (remember Morden talking to everyone before settling on Londo). Londo, Cartagia, Justin, Morden all cooperated by choice. The only time they used people against their will was to power their ships (Anna Sheridan, the psi-corp blips).

    It was not control the Shadows wanted, it was conversion. They wanted people to choose them over the Vorlons. The only exception I can think of was what they might have done to Sheridan had he not been armed.

    Say what you like about the tenets of National Shadowism. At least it's an ethos.
    Last edited by Hal_10000; 05-31-2007, 06:03 AM.

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  • Whyruss
    replied
    Originally posted by moreorless View Post
    Different objective though, the Russians did it to deny Napoleon supplies were as Clark and Hitler did it to strike back at those who have failed or beaten them.
    That's what I wanted to write too - thx ^^

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  • iamsheridan
    replied
    Originally posted by moreorless View Post
    Different objective though, the Russians did it to deny Napoleon supplies were as Clark and Hitler did it to strike back at those who have failed or beaten them.
    You know, I was thinking about writing something about that, but thought that it would not be necessary!

    Thanks!
    Regards

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  • moreorless
    replied
    Originally posted by iamsheridan View Post
    He was far from the first one to come up with that idea. I know the Russians did it during the war with Napoleon and I'm sure they had done it before and maybe later as well.

    Regards
    Different objective though, the Russians did it to deny Napoleon supplies were as Clark and Hitler did it to strike back at those who have failed or beaten them.

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  • vacantlook
    replied
    Wikipedia's entry for "Scorched Earth" says that "two of the first uses of scorched earth recorded both happened in the Gallic Wars".

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  • iamsheridan
    replied
    Originally posted by Whyruss View Post
    Perhaps JMS got the idea of scorched earth from world war 2. Adolf Hitler had a project called "Verbrannte Erde" (= scorched earth) to destroy completely the own country when the war was lost. He also planed to detonate an a-bomb in the centre of Berlin - fortunately time and a lot of scientists were not on his side.
    He was far from the first one to come up with that idea. I know the Russians did it during the war with Napoleon and I'm sure they had done it before and maybe later as well.

    Regards

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  • Whyruss
    replied
    Perhaps JMS got the idea of scorched earth from world war 2. Adolf Hitler had a project called "Verbrannte Erde" (= scorched earth) to destroy completely the own country when the war was lost. He also planed to detonate an a-bomb in the centre of Berlin - fortunately time and a lot of scientists were not on his side.
    Last edited by Whyruss; 05-22-2007, 06:17 AM.

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  • Andrew_Swallow
    replied
    Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino View Post
    I can't find the message in the archives, but I remember JMS shooting this idea down and then pointing out that plenty of actual Humans have managed to be vicious, murderous tyrants without being controlled by Keepers, including several of his models for Clark like Hitler and Stalin.
    I suspect that this posting by JMS applies

    http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?ID=1-1792

    Latest Ep 6/10/98

    {original post had no questions}

    Well, do bear in mind that the events in "War" were 17 years
    after the fact, so the shadow allies could have come at any time;
    Sheridan didn't fully understand what a keeper was, and also bear in
    mind that there is no reason to suspect anything in this situation.
    People can indeed start wars without having keepers on them, you know.
    We do it all the time. He would have to have some overwhelming
    proof...and even then, if he says anything to Londo, he might risk
    changing the timeline, and that would have potentially disasterous
    consequences.

    jms

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  • RMcD
    replied
    Maybe Clark was making a bold statement about his forward-thinking social policies?

    Or maybe he was just looking for a phrase that happens to contain all the letters in 'scorched earth'?

    Maybe writing it out over and over was a way of boring his keeper to sleep?

    Leave a comment:


  • BabylonRebel
    replied
    the Dr. Strangelove note was P.O.E - Peace on Earth or Purity of Essence. Colonel Ripper in the film is obsessed with keeping himself pure - his psychosis leads him to believe that the Russians have put something in the American water supply.

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  • moreorless
    replied
    Originally posted by Jan View Post
    The note that had 'Scorched Earth' circled was a homage to Dr.Strangelove by John Copeland as per this JMS post.

    Jan
    The Strangelove message didnt use the same phase though did it(be along time since I watched it) so I wouldnt say that rules out "The ascension of the ordinary man" having some meaning towards the B5 plot.

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  • SmileOfTheShadow
    replied
    Originally posted by Jan View Post
    Hi, Dan, welcome!

    My feeling on Clark was that he was an absolute bastard but that he *might* have had that tendency enhanced by the Psi Corps who were working directly or indirectly with the Shadows. If he'd had a Keeper, would it have allowed him to suicide?
    If he had a keeper, the keeper would have known that he was going to get caught and who knows what information would be attempted to be extracted from him which may even lead to the discovery of keepers by the humans, who have an odd tendency to come up with handy gadgets to nullify things.

    So I think if he did have a keeper it would have probably forced his suicide.

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  • I love Lyta
    replied
    Originally posted by DantheDragon View Post
    "Scorched Earth".
    Funnily enough: What Clarke didn't manage to do alone, mankind managed as a whole almost 500 years later.

    I can't remember if the Keepers die if their host does,...
    If I remember what's written in the Legions of Fire Trilogy correctly, it does.

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  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by moreorless View Post
    Indeed, might not a clue be that he got "scourched earth" from mutiple lines of "The ascension of the ordinary man". That seems very similar to "the rise of the common man" and isnt that related to Andrew Jacksons 19th century presidencey(with the nets help as US history isnt my strong point ) based on a common man using public nationalism?
    The note that had 'Scorched Earth' circled was a homage to Dr.Strangelove by John Copeland as per this JMS post.

    Jan

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  • moreorless
    replied
    Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino View Post
    I can't find the message in the archives, but I remember JMS shooting this idea down and then pointing out that plenty of actual Humans have managed to be vicious, murderous tyrants without being controlled by Keepers, including several of his models for Clark like Hitler and Stalin. There was never any hint that the man was coerced or doing anythiing other than enthusiastically cooperating with his new allies. (For that matter, Londo did most of his damage to everybody except the Centauri before he was Keepered, the Drakh attack on Earth being the only major exception.)

    Regards,

    Joe
    Indeed, might not a clue be that he got "scourched earth" from mutiple lines of "The ascension of the ordinary man". That seems very similar to "the rise of the common man" and isnt that related to Andrew Jacksons 19th century presidencey(with the nets help as US history isnt my strong point ) based on a common man using public nationalism?

    Might that give the impression that JMS viewed Clark as an extension of all the human xenophobia we see thoughout the series? Of all the "badguys" he is afterall the only one who gets almost zero characterization.

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