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Plot hole in "Gathering" (Spoilers)

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  • #16
    A better question, though, is why Kosh was fooled by the changling net. He knew what Sinclair looked, smelt, gorkked, and vippled like. The makers of the net knew nothing about Vorlon senses, and so how would they know how to fake the gork and vipple of Sinclair?
    Kosh wasn`t fooled by anything, he already had foreknowledge of what was going to occur.

    he got all the info from Valen 1000 years previously and knew what was expected of him.

    he knew about the assasin, the poison, everything, he just followed the "script" and everything played out as Valen said it would.

    "at the end, return to the beginning" applies to a lot of things in B5.
    "The trouble with being a cynic is that you eventually get labelled as a highly reliable fortune-teller"

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    • #17
      Originally posted by jal
      Kosh wasn`t fooled by anything, he already had foreknowledge of what was going to occur.

      he got all the info from Valen 1000 years previously and knew what was expected of him.

      he knew about the assasin, the poison, everything, he just followed the "script" and everything played out as Valen said it would.

      "at the end, return to the beginning" applies to a lot of things in B5.
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      The above statement seems to be an opinion stated as a fact. The one thing we seldom know for sure in B5 is whats going on in the minds of the Vorlons. Did you base this on a jms post? If so I would like to see it.

      As to the Vorlons finding all this out from Sinclair, well, anyone who had read ''To Dream in the City of Sorrows'', would know that Sinclair had very little trust in Vorlons.

      Really, unless its written in stone either somewhere in B5 or by jms himself, it dont mean squat.

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      • #18
        Cronan is correct, and I would tend to agree with him for the same reasons. JMS has been pretty determined not to answer questions on this subject, mostly because I don't think he much likes the idea of Valen telling Kosh everything that's going to happen... and I can't say I do either. To be perfectly honest, it very much goes against Sinclair's character.

        As for the Koshism (which was, if I recall "When the long night comes, return to the end of the beginning."), it was very much a reference to what would come in Sleeping in Light, and wasn't really meant to convey much of anything else I don't believe.

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        • #19
          [email protected]#$%

          I seem to recall making a statement similar to jals earlier, then getting the [email protected]#$ trashed out of it. Fast foward a hundred posts and I'm doing the trashing.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Kevin
            Cronan is correct, and I would tend to agree with him for the same reasons. JMS has been pretty determined not to answer questions on this subject, mostly because I don't think he much likes the idea of Valen telling Kosh everything that's going to happen... and I can't say I do either. To be perfectly honest, it very much goes against Sinclair's character.
            Further, JMS makes it a major plot point that Kosh DID "know" that Sinclair was "Valen to be" and thus DID extend a hand to him in greeting... something he would do for few if any others. In the re-edited episode he even added Kosh dialogue to reinforce this point.
            I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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            • #21
              The above statement seems to be an opinion stated as a fact.
              of course it is an opinion, i never stated otherwise.

              i have always felt it was reasonable enough, not wishing to start a flame war, but it seemed to cover events quite well.

              i was never after answers for everything in the series, the ambiguities were half the fun.

              As for the Koshism (which was, if I recall "When the long night comes, return to the end of the beginning."), it was very much a reference to what would come in Sleeping in Light, and wasn't really meant to convey much of anything else I don't believe.
              i know.

              nevertheless, i`m not trying to jam the quote into the events that happened in the Gathering, just that the quote also seemed appropriate in the circumstances; Sinclair goes back in time, becomes Valen, meets Kosh, Kosh meets Sinclair and Sinclair goes back in time.

              consider it a repeating motif.
              "The trouble with being a cynic is that you eventually get labelled as a highly reliable fortune-teller"

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              • #22
                "The trouble with being a cynic is that you eventually get labelled as a highly reliable fortune-teller"
                ----------------------------------------------------------------
                Well if thats not an optimistic way of looking at cynicism then I dont know what is.

                I believe a true cynic would see themselves in a somewhat less optimistic light.

                For example, the trouble with being a cynic is that you eventually get labeled a highly reliable party-pooper. You do your absolute best to make other people feel miserable. Your life is [email protected]#$ed up, so it follows there is no reason for others to be any happier with their lives then you are with yours. When you're right, everyone resents you. When your wrong everyone goes off and ignores you.

                Of course a true optimist would label cynics in a somewhat less pessimistic light.

                For ex. Its always worthwhile to prepare for the worst. After all, how many times have I had all my hopes crushed with my reckless optimism? Me being so [email protected]#$ trusting, how many times have I been robbed, beat up, and [email protected]#$ upon just because I respected my fellow man? Cynicism, optimism whatever floats your boat right?

                CRONAN
                Confirmed User
                Last edited by CRONAN; 05-02-2004, 11:10 AM.

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                • #23
                  you do know that that is just my signature and not part of the discussion?
                  "The trouble with being a cynic is that you eventually get labelled as a highly reliable fortune-teller"

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                  • #24
                    Quoting JMS

                    it is NOT an error, not a plot hole, it is a plot POINT

                    Relooking at the ep, it seems to me that Kosh says something to the effect of "It is our Valen" just before before the skin tab is put on. Loads of foreshadowing (pardon the pun)

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by RGesty
                      Quoting JMS

                      it is NOT an error, not a plot hole, it is a plot POINT

                      Relooking at the ep, it seems to me that Kosh says something to the effect of "It is our Valen" just before before the skin tab is put on. Loads of foreshadowing (pardon the pun)
                      He says "En'Til'Zha Valen"

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Kevin
                        He says "En'Til'Zha Valen"
                        Actually, Kosh just thinks these words:
                        >So Kosh recognizes that Sinclair is the same person he knew 1000 years in
                        >the past as Valen; since Kosh didn't know that this wasn't really Sinclair
                        >(else why greet him so?) wouldn't this have given Sinclair a dangerous
                        >foreknowledge?

                        Internal dialogue...what he was thinking, his reaction.

                        jms
                        (01/04/1998)
                        I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Yes I know, we've already destablished that in this discussion ;P

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