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Group Watch: Mind War

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  • SmileOfTheShadow
    replied
    Originally posted by Garibaldi's Hair View Post
    Surely a big part of Sheridan's story arc was his change from a fairly shallow, military-type with a tactical mind and a big grin to a more rounded, more 3 dimensional character through seasons 2-5.

    The Sheridan of S2 could not have been President of the Alliance, and his move from military man to diplomat was handled very well (IMO), culminating in the military man coming starkly back into focus when the dam burst in the council meeting and he "agreed" to take the ISA into war with the Centauri.

    I also can't see the Sheridan of Points of Departure breaking away from Earth and declaring B5 independent.

    He was certainly not as rounded as G'Kar or Londo, but he was clearly a deeper and more rounded character by the time of Objects at Rest than he was in Points of Departure, and I always figured that that was the point.

    I think it is also a sign of good writing that these changes can happen without them having to be pointed out, thrown in your face or otherwise marked with a huge, glow in the dark, highlight. The changes in Sheridan's character happened subtly, and came naturally as a consequence of his experiences through the story.
    I will concede to your point fine sir!

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  • Garibaldi's Hair
    replied
    Surely a big part of Sheridan's story arc was his change from a fairly shallow, military-type with a tactical mind and a big grin to a more rounded, more 3 dimensional character through seasons 2-5.

    The Sheridan of S2 could not have been President of the Alliance, and his move from military man to diplomat was handled very well (IMO), culminating in the military man coming starkly back into focus when the dam burst in the council meeting and he "agreed" to take the ISA into war with the Centauri.

    I also can't see the Sheridan of Points of Departure breaking away from Earth and declaring B5 independent.

    He was certainly not as rounded as G'Kar or Londo, but he was clearly a deeper and more rounded character by the time of Objects at Rest than he was in Points of Departure, and I always figured that that was the point.

    I think it is also a sign of good writing that these changes can happen without them having to be pointed out, thrown in your face or otherwise marked with a huge, glow in the dark, highlight. The changes in Sheridan's character happened subtly, and came naturally as a consequence of his experiences through the story.

    Leave a comment:


  • iamsheridan
    replied
    I never could tell the difference between Sinclair and Sheridan. Ah wait, Sinclair was the guy with gray hair, wasn't he?

    No, really. They both solved problems by following the book, but bending the rules to suit themselves (or, rather, the current cause). For instance the way in which the problems with the dockworkers was solved. Can't think of any more right now, but wasn't it Sinclair who said something like "Don't give a man a gun if you don't want him to use it"? Or was it Sheridan...?

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  • RMcD
    replied
    Sheridan was, as far as I could make out, Bruce Boxleitner.

    On top of that, though, he did have a handful of defining characteristics that I think make him a 2-dimensional character, at the very least (although it depends what you mean by dimensions).

    He was a tactical thinker - his instinctive approach to any problem was intellectual, as a puzzle to be solved, or a knot to be unravelled. That came up time and again - in Points of Departure in the way he dealt with the renegade ship, in And the Rock Cried Out where he began to think like the enemy, in Rumors Bargains and Lies where he tricked the League, etc. etc.

    Although a good soldier with an instinct to serve, he was not unquestioningly loyal to his superiors where it conflicted with his sense of moral rectitude. He collected secrets and conspiracies. He took a stand when they tried to charge him rent, and he did so again on a much larger scale when B5 seceded.

    He formed very close dependent relationships with his loved-ones. He kept Anna's photo close on the Lexington, consulted his Dad before breaking away from Earth, abandoned his task force when Garibaldi told him his father had been captured, and considered Delenn to be his one thing worth living for. These seem quite different from the kinds of relationships Sinclair had with Catherine Sakai or Carolyn, where both parties seemed to remain very independent (just to bring the topic momentarily back to Mind War ).

    He was visibly upset when those serving under him were killed, particularly when, as with Ramirez or Gallas, they died alone in space, perhaps because of his own personal experience of being all alone in the night. However he returned from Z'ha'dum with the necessary resolve to sacrifice other peoples' lives in the cause of victory (Eriksson's crew, and the modified rogue telepaths). It's a turning point for his character. Franklin was shocked at how much he had changed.

    Anyway, cut a long story short - perhaps he wasn't the most rounded character on B5, but he did at least have a few consistent traits that informed how he behaved over the course of the story.

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  • BabylonRebel
    replied
    Garibaldi came off as a bit of an idiot, but behind him lay a sharp intelligence. We see him as a compassionate, loving man who is about doing the right thing, but also see him as tough, authorative figure with a dark side.

    Leave a comment:


  • SmileOfTheShadow
    replied
    Originally posted by FredScuttle View Post
    I guess - as all forms of entertainment - so much is subjective. While on the surface I disagree about Sheridans demension count - I'd like to see comparisons.

    Could you who think he is only singular point to other characters and relate in contrast what their multiple ones are?

    Like I said above - while I disagree - I can not directly put into words why - I can not also say exactly who I feel MAY have been a 1 dim character - or the counts of the multi ones.

    And for fairness sake - let's keep it to major characters. No debating whether or not N'Grath had multiple ones.....

    I feel like Sheridan was a military grunt through and through. Even his toilet humor points to the same conclusion. Everything to him was a tactical battle in which to win, every situation approached pretty much the same. Sinclair definitely had much more diversity to his approach.

    I think the biggest contrast in terms of multidimentiality (is that a word Amy?) is G'Kar. You can see him as just this bloodthirsty Narn at points, and then later he's almost like Ghandi. A lot of complex character development there.

    Ivanova's softer side came out with Talia and with Marcus for a little bit.

    Vir was always full of surprises, always making me laugh, but he could have a brave and courages side, as well as a vicious side with his little wave to Mr. Morden.

    I'll let other people have the podium now.

    Leave a comment:


  • FredScuttle
    replied
    I guess - as all forms of entertainment - so much is subjective. While on the surface I disagree about Sheridans demension count - I'd like to see comparisons.

    Could you who think he is only singular point to other characters and relate in contrast what their multiple ones are?

    Like I said above - while I disagree - I can not directly put into words why - I can not also say exactly who I feel MAY have been a 1 dim character - or the counts of the multi ones.

    And for fairness sake - let's keep it to major characters. No debating whether or not N'Grath had multiple ones.....

    Leave a comment:


  • Dipper
    replied
    I think he was quite one dimensional, but if you have to say something, I'd say the other dimension of his personality was his sense of humor. It always felt odd when he was joking, since he was quite serious and driven. Sinclair wasn't that serious and he had more the air of an intellectual jester where Sheridan was more in the area of simple toilet-humor.

    -Dip

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  • SmileOfTheShadow
    replied
    I'm trying to think of Sheridan's multiple dimensions..and I'm afraid it's escaping me. Someone want to clarify?

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  • Garibaldi's Hair
    replied
    *cough* In Your Opinion *cough*

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  • Lope de Aguirre
    replied
    Originally posted by FredScuttle View Post
    THERE WILL BE NO ONE DIMENSIONAL CHARACTERS ON THIS SHOW!!
    *cough Sheridan cough*

    Leave a comment:


  • FredScuttle
    replied
    The very first time I watched B5 as it was broadcast I missed this Ep. Many years later when TNT re-ran them I saw it and was amazed. Really really liked this one.

    G'Kars speech at the end with the Ant. Classic JMS writing at it's best. Still in season 1 he was throwing down the gauntlet - THERE WILL BE NO ONE DIMENSIONAL CHARACTERS ON THIS SHOW!!

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  • SmileOfTheShadow
    replied
    I stand corrected. I was hoping for a comics reference because of the Prisoner reference in the show perhaps. That one's undeniable.

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  • RMcD
    replied
    I thought the way Bester is portrayed in those novels was outstanding, very in keeping with Walter Koenig's performance in the series. It adds a lot when you watch those episodes.

    On the Watchmen thing, I think it may actually be the other way round.. According to Wikipedia's entry on Watchmen:

    The title Watchmen is derived from the phrase Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?, from Juvenal's Satire VI, "Against women" (c. AD 60-127), often translated as "Who watches the watchmen?"
    However given how keen he is on this kind of thing it seems totally possible that JMS was thinking of the comic when he put the line into the script.

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  • TurkishZath
    replied
    Since the latin phrase "quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" would literally be translated as "Who watches those males who watch?" both "watchers" and "watchmen" would be an acceptable translation.

    JMS may or may not have intended the reference.

    Leave a comment:

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