Group Watch: Mind War

[SmileOfTheShadow]

This was exciting. Bester! I remembered this episode pretty well and it introduces telepathy to a greater extent, and the psi cops. Really good introductory episode here. I love when Talia is explaining that it's hard to block out certain strong feelings as Garibaldi is checking her out. More quality JMS humor here.

More significance..we get to see first ones as Sakai ventures into a restricted area of space! This also directly plays into To Dream In The City Of Sorrows, getting referenced pretty heavily in the first third of the book. G'Kar plays a big role in this, sending some Narn out for her rescue. Before this, G'Kar was shown as savage, selfish, a G'Kar we don't see here who's pretty kind. It flows into his line "People here are not as they seem." Which JMS' script book talks about extensively so I won't go into it.

Sakai's actress does a better job in this episode than the last one, at least from what I've noticed. It seems they're getting a little more comfortable with the role and the relationship.

Walter Koenig was of course, amazing. He really makes this show.

Also..I noticed JMS was geek reference happy in this episode. Here's just what I've caught, and I never noticed this before this viewing:

1. "Who watches the watchmen?" Ivanova. A watchmen reference obviously. Props for the comic reference.

2. "Be seeing you, commander." Bester. With the little hand gesture. The Prisoner reference. I'm giving an extra ten kudos points for that one. I laughed very hard, my girflriend didn't get it haha.

Your turn

[RMcD]

1. "Who watches the watchmen?" Ivanova. A watchmen reference obviously. Props for the comic reference.

I don't know exactly what JMS had in mind there, but just to be ultra-pedantic and annoying the phrase 'quis custodiet ipsos custodes?' is around 2,000 years old, and most often attributed to the Roman poet Juvenal.

I like this episode a lot. I figured out once point that every season one episode introduces at least some thread or plotline that's mentioned or built on later on. This one introduces two big ones: the psi-cops (ie. Bester), and the First Ones. Like several of the early S1 episodes, it also has a very distinctive musical motif. It's easily my favourite Talia episode (although I'm definitely not a big fan of hers). Having read the excellent telepath trilogy recently, I'm also seeing all the telepath / Bester episodes in a whole new light. It's a good effects episode too - I enjoy the central corridor scene where Talia is explaining telepath sex to Sinclair, and I wish they hadn't given up on depicting the core shuttle so early.

Strong episode all round.

[SmileOfTheShadow]

I don't know exactly what JMS had in mind there, but just to be ultra-pedantic and annoying the phrase 'quis custodiet ipsos custodes?' is around 2,000 years old, and most often attributed to the Roman poet Juvenal.

I like this episode a lot. I figured out once point that every season one episode introduces at least some thread or plotline that's mentioned or built on later on. This one introduces two big ones: the psi-cops (ie. Bester), and the First Ones. Like several of the early S1 episodes, it also has a very distinctive musical motif. It's easily my favourite Talia episode (although I'm definitely not a big fan of hers). Having read the excellent telepath trilogy recently, I'm also seeing all the telepath / Bester episodes in a whole new light. It's a good effects episode too - I enjoy the central corridor scene where Talia is explaining telepath sex to Sinclair, and I wish they hadn't given up on depicting the core shuttle so early.

Strong episode all round.

I think the phrase you're thinking of is "who watches the watchers?" Right? That's the cliche I think. But "who watches the watchmen" is a comic reference? I'll have to look it up.

I'm now reading Deadly Relations which goes into how Bester grew up to become who he was, and it definitely solidifies the picture of who Bester is and why, though it's a little bit of an obvious story from what I can tell thus far. Makes the psi-corps eps a little more impactful.

[TurkishZath]

Since the latin phrase "quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" would literally be translated as "Who watches those males who watch?" both "watchers" and "watchmen" would be an acceptable translation.

JMS may or may not have intended the reference.

[RMcD]

I thought the way Bester is portrayed in those novels was outstanding, very in keeping with Walter Koenig's performance in the series. It adds a lot when you watch those episodes.

On the Watchmen thing, I think it may actually be the other way round.. According to Wikipedia's entry on Watchmen:

The title Watchmen is derived from the phrase Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?, from Juvenal's Satire VI, "Against women" (c. AD 60-127), often translated as "Who watches the watchmen?"

However given how keen he is on this kind of thing it seems totally possible that JMS was thinking of the comic when he put the line into the script.

[SmileOfTheShadow]

I stand corrected. I was hoping for a comics reference because of the Prisoner reference in the show perhaps. That one's undeniable.

[FredScuttle]

The very first time I watched B5 as it was broadcast I missed this Ep. Many years later when TNT re-ran them I saw it and was amazed. Really really liked this one.

G'Kars speech at the end with the Ant. Classic JMS writing at it's best. Still in season 1 he was throwing down the gauntlet - THERE WILL BE NO ONE DIMENSIONAL CHARACTERS ON THIS SHOW!!

[Lope de Aguirre]

THERE WILL BE NO ONE DIMENSIONAL CHARACTERS ON THIS SHOW!!

*cough Sheridan cough*

[Garibaldi's Hair]

*cough* In Your Opinion *cough*

[SmileOfTheShadow]

I'm trying to think of Sheridan's multiple dimensions..and I'm afraid it's escaping me. Someone want to clarify?

[Dipper]

I think he was quite one dimensional, but if you have to say something, I'd say the other dimension of his personality was his sense of humor. It always felt odd when he was joking, since he was quite serious and driven. Sinclair wasn't that serious and he had more the air of an intellectual jester where Sheridan was more in the area of simple toilet-humor.

-Dip

[FredScuttle]

I guess - as all forms of entertainment - so much is subjective. While on the surface I disagree about Sheridans demension count - I'd like to see comparisons.

Could you who think he is only singular point to other characters and relate in contrast what their multiple ones are?

Like I said above - while I disagree - I can not directly put into words why - I can not also say exactly who I feel MAY have been a 1 dim character - or the counts of the multi ones.

And for fairness sake - let's keep it to major characters. No debating whether or not N'Grath had multiple ones.....

[SmileOfTheShadow]

I guess - as all forms of entertainment - so much is subjective. While on the surface I disagree about Sheridans demension count - I'd like to see comparisons.

Could you who think he is only singular point to other characters and relate in contrast what their multiple ones are?

Like I said above - while I disagree - I can not directly put into words why - I can not also say exactly who I feel MAY have been a 1 dim character - or the counts of the multi ones.

And for fairness sake - let's keep it to major characters. No debating whether or not N'Grath had multiple ones.....

I feel like Sheridan was a military grunt through and through. Even his toilet humor points to the same conclusion. Everything to him was a tactical battle in which to win, every situation approached pretty much the same. Sinclair definitely had much more diversity to his approach.

I think the biggest contrast in terms of multidimentiality (is that a word Amy?) is G'Kar. You can see him as just this bloodthirsty Narn at points, and then later he's almost like Ghandi. A lot of complex character development there.

Ivanova's softer side came out with Talia and with Marcus for a little bit.

Vir was always full of surprises, always making me laugh, but he could have a brave and courages side, as well as a vicious side with his little wave to Mr. Morden.

I'll let other people have the podium now.

[BabylonRebel]

Garibaldi came off as a bit of an idiot, but behind him lay a sharp intelligence. We see him as a compassionate, loving man who is about doing the right thing, but also see him as tough, authorative figure with a dark side.

[RMcD]

Sheridan was, as far as I could make out, Bruce Boxleitner.

On top of that, though, he did have a handful of defining characteristics that I think make him a 2-dimensional character, at the very least (although it depends what you mean by dimensions).

He was a tactical thinker - his instinctive approach to any problem was intellectual, as a puzzle to be solved, or a knot to be unravelled. That came up time and again - in Points of Departure in the way he dealt with the renegade ship, in And the Rock Cried Out where he began to think like the enemy, in Rumors Bargains and Lies where he tricked the League, etc. etc.

Although a good soldier with an instinct to serve, he was not unquestioningly loyal to his superiors where it conflicted with his sense of moral rectitude. He collected secrets and conspiracies. He took a stand when they tried to charge him rent, and he did so again on a much larger scale when B5 seceded.

He formed very close dependent relationships with his loved-ones. He kept Anna's photo close on the Lexington, consulted his Dad before breaking away from Earth, abandoned his task force when Garibaldi told him his father had been captured, and considered Delenn to be his one thing worth living for. These seem quite different from the kinds of relationships Sinclair had with Catherine Sakai or Carolyn, where both parties seemed to remain very independent (just to bring the topic momentarily back to Mind War ).

He was visibly upset when those serving under him were killed, particularly when, as with Ramirez or Gallas, they died alone in space, perhaps because of his own personal experience of being all alone in the night. However he returned from Z'ha'dum with the necessary resolve to sacrifice other peoples' lives in the cause of victory (Eriksson's crew, and the modified rogue telepaths). It's a turning point for his character. Franklin was shocked at how much he had changed.

Anyway, cut a long story short - perhaps he wasn't the most rounded character on B5, but he did at least have a few consistent traits that informed how he behaved over the course of the story.