Did characters get the fate they deserved?

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  • moreorless
    Confirmed User
    • Sep 2006
    • 226

    Did characters get the fate they deserved?

    I'd say the series as a whole was based quite strongly on the classical epic style were a series of moral choices dicate the story but was each characters fate actually "deserved"?

    The most obvious exception for me would be Talia but I'd guess thats largely a product of her story being curtailed early. In the original version with her personally likely return with Kosh's data crystal I'd say the incident would be a nice payback for turning a blind eye to the Corps rather obvious moral lapses.

    What about the other characters?
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  • SLerman
    Confirmed User
    • Nov 2005
    • 148

    #2
    Almost none of the characters got the fate that they really deserved. Marcus had the best explanation for it:
    You know, I used to think that life was terribly unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair? If all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe.

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    • Radhil
      Part-Time Dreamer
      • Jan 2004
      • 1043

      #3
      Ditto on Marcus.
      Radhil Trebors
      Persona Under Construction

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      • Jan
        Moderator
        • Oct 2003
        • 14912

        #4
        Originally posted by moreorless View Post
        I'd say the series as a whole was based quite strongly on the classical epic style were a series of moral choices dicate the story but was each characters fate actually "deserved"?
        Cool question. B5 was often about redemption, too, so a strict 'justice' wouldn't be appropriate to the story.

        What fate did Delenn 'deserve' after giving the order that came so close to meaning the end of the Human race? Yes, she gave up all that she was in order to atone for that but did she 'deserve' the eventual adulation she got and a happy life with a loving husband, a son and fulfilling, important work?

        Lennier seems to have gotten a bad deal, too. After spending his life serving others selflessly, a moment of weakness bought him exile, albeit self-exile.

        Becoming a rebel leader can't be anything that most kids dream of growing up to be so I doubt that Lyta deserved her fate, either.

        So, no...I don't think any of them got the fates they deserved but they got the fates that their actions and choices led them to.

        Jan
        "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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        • Joe Nazzaro
          Confirmed User
          • Mar 2004
          • 866

          #5
          Jan, I think I agree with most of what you said, but it brings up an interesting question: how would Lennier's storyline have played out if the original five-year storyline had been produced? I always felt that his actions near the end of S5 seemed terribly manufactured and out of character, and I know Bill Mumy has been hugely outspoken about that himself. Funnily enough, I went back and re-read JMS's notes for S5 in the current script book, and I didn't see anything at all about Lennier in there, which would suggest that big betrayal wasn't in the original cards. I would be very interested to know what Joe's ORIGINAL season 5 plans for Lennier were and if they would have gone in the same direction.

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          • Jan
            Moderator
            • Oct 2003
            • 14912

            #6
            Originally posted by Joe Nazzaro View Post
            Jan, I think I agree with most of what you said, but it brings up an interesting question: how would Lennier's storyline have played out if the original five-year storyline had been produced? I always felt that his actions near the end of S5 seemed terribly manufactured and out of character, and I know Bill Mumy has been hugely outspoken about that himself.
            I might agree, Joe, if it weren't for the look on Lennier's face in "The Summoning" when Sheridan appeared on the bridge over the Zocalo. You could *see* that Lennier was more than a little displeased to see Sheridan back. What happened in season 5 was telegraphed much earlier if you actually looked.

            Ditto Lyta. At first her actions in season 5 seemed to come out of nowhere until I watched more carefully how she had been used by everybody all along. Talia before her too, of course.

            Funnily enough, I went back and re-read JMS's notes for S5 in the current script book, and I didn't see anything at all about Lennier in there, which would suggest that big betrayal wasn't in the original cards.
            Not necessarily. JMS said in the book that there was a lot in those notes that he already knew would be included. Those were notes to help him figure out new ways to work up to the sequel series.

            I would be very interested to know what Joe's ORIGINAL season 5 plans for Lennier were and if they would have gone in the same direction.
            But wasn't it Bill Mumy who approached JMS with the idea of his love for Delenn? AIR, JMS had that as one possible option, not definite. Like you, though, I'm looking forward to the original story line that featured Sinclair all the way through. From what we've seen so far, I'm expecting it'll be both familiar and different.

            Jan
            "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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            • moreorless
              Confirmed User
              • Sep 2006
              • 226

              #7
              Originally posted by Jan View Post
              Cool question. B5 was often about redemption, too, so a strict 'justice' wouldn't be appropriate to the story.

              What fate did Delenn 'deserve' after giving the order that came so close to meaning the end of the Human race? Yes, she gave up all that she was in order to atone for that but did she 'deserve' the eventual adulation she got and a happy life with a loving husband, a son and fulfilling, important work?

              Lennier seems to have gotten a bad deal, too. After spending his life serving others selflessly, a moment of weakness bought him exile, albeit self-exile.

              Becoming a rebel leader can't be anything that most kids dream of growing up to be so I doubt that Lyta deserved her fate, either.

              So, no...I don't think any of them got the fates they deserved but they got the fates that their actions and choices led them to.

              Jan
              I wouldnt say justice as much as fully earned redemption. In alot of mainstream fiction you get characters turning from evil to good with a simple apology, in B5 on the other hand it seemed to be deeds were far more important than words(JMS athemism? ).

              The classic two I spose are G'kar and Londo...

              G'Kar started off as a pretty morally dubious character, you could argue his hatred of the Centauri was one of the main reasons Londo turned to Morden. He gradually moved away from that position leading up to the vision with Kosh but you could argue the real redemption was going though the torture at Cartagia's hands.

              Londo also moved away from even worse acts ending with the apology to G'Kar in season 4 but it took his own death to really achieve redemption.

              It becomes less clear with the other characters I agree as Sheridan almost seemed to work in reverse making the ulimate sacrifice in order to be as ruthless as was needed verus the Shadows/Vorlons and Clark. Franklin was pretty clearly protrayed as arrogant in his dealing with others and you could argue the ordeal he went though helped him to realise that.

              Garabali and Ivanova don't fit it aswell I spose although I spose the latter was pretty ruthless in her dislike of the Corps to the extend she would have murdered Bester in cold blood but for Sheridan.
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              • StarHarper
                StarHarper
                • Sep 2006
                • 6

                #8
                I don't think that Delenn was rewarded with a "perfect" life in the end. Yes, she had a husband who loved her beyond reason, but she would also have to live with knowing that husband would die long before he should and that their years together would be short. That would certainly put a damper on my happiness level.
                We are one.

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                • moreorless
                  Confirmed User
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 226

                  #9
                  Originally posted by StarHarper View Post
                  I don't think that Delenn was rewarded with a "perfect" life in the end. Yes, she had a husband who loved her beyond reason, but she would also have to live with knowing that husband would die long before he should and that their years together would be short. That would certainly put a damper on my happiness level.
                  She wasnt exactly a "perfect" character though playing a part in starting an war that killed millions then keeping infomation from Sheridan in order to control him.
                  Who are you?
                  What do you want?
                  What is the average inflight speed of an unladened swallow?

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