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Seeking understanding - Much to ask of Kosh

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  • #16
    Originally posted by iamsheridan View Post
    But then it dawned on me: The first time was with Valen! So that's my guess.

    Regards,
    /IamS
    Absolutely how I understood his reply as well. And considering that it was Valen/Sinclair who was accompanied by two Vorlons when the Minbatri found him, it makes perfect sense to me.
    What's up Drakh?

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    • #17
      I interpreted the 'your thoughts became the song' thing as being a description of a very specific process - that of Kosh synchronising his thoughts with someone so that he could break off a sliver of his consciousness and place it in them, basically his version of the Vulcan mind-meld mantra ('my mind to your mind. my thoughts to your thoughts').

      'I have always been here' is basically his way of saying 'we are one'. Sheridan is carrying a piece of him probably from somewhere early in season 2, certainly in All Alone in the Night, and from Interludes and Examinations onward. He's in G'Kar briefly in Dust to Dust, and Lyta is carrying him perhaps from as early as scanning him in the Gathering (so my guess would be that Lyta is the 'once').

      Obviously it's not impossible that he was inside Valen at some point as well..

      Actually it's really interesting to see that people read something more metaphysical into it. I guess it's one to ask JMS, since only he knows for sure what he meant.

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      • #18
        The Vorlons seem to have some kind of musical connection to the universe. Their natural voice sounds like musical tones, and even Kosh's ship sings to Dr. Jacobs (A Race Through Dark Places?). It may be how they connect to the "path" that Draal describes to Ivanova. "Becoming the song" would mean Sheridan, for a brief time of unconsciousness, became connected to the universe in such a way that Kosh could communicate with him telepathically over a large distance.

        I remember reading somewhere that the line "I have always been here" has something to do with Vorlons not entirely obeying the concept of linear time. Remember Marcus's comparison of Kosh with Merlin, who actually aged backwards in time? I don't think that was quite as much of a throwaway line as it seemed.

        And I'm with most of the others on thinking that the one other time someone's thoughts became the song was Valen.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by SLerman View Post
          Their natural voice sounds like musical tones, and even Kosh's ship sings to Dr. Jacobs (A Race Through Dark Places?).
          [nitpick]Dr Jacobs appeared in Hunter,Prey ...[/nitpick]

          The Optimist: The glass is half full
          The Pessimist: The glass is half empty
          The Engineer: The glass is twice as big as it needs to be

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          • #20
            Originally posted by DeMonk View Post
            Kosh answers, "I sought understanding. I listened to the song. Your thoughts became the song."
            Sheridan asks, "Has this ever happened before?" and Kosh says, "Once."

            Now, that's a weird question to ask first. He doesn't ask why he's spying on him û being a military man wouldn't that be the first thing on his mind? û or how he's doing it. He simply wants to know if it had happened before. Why was that question important?
            So, what happened the previous time, when was it and why wasn't Sheridan aware of it?
            I'll go with, it happened with someone other than Sheridan, and it was Sinclair/Valen, 1000 years ago, right after the station arrived, thinking/singing "@#$, what do I do next? I really wish there was a Vorlon around here."

            Edit. I see someone else posted the same thing...
            Last edited by NotKosh; 02-22-2007, 07:13 PM.
            "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

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            • #21
              More of the same I agree that the before situation Kosh mentioned didn't involve Sheridan, the whole thing of Kosh "dancing trough Sheridans mind" (because I really do think it was a little more then just listening to the song) started at the Streib encounter if I remember corretly. That in ways convinced me the Streib were connected to the Vorlon, looking for order, putting things into catogories etc.

              I don't think it was Sinclair/Valen, in the scene where where he is welcomed on B4 there are two vorlon in the background both wearing the Kosh II encounter suits. I'm also not sure about Lyta, if she had been touched by Kosh would Kosh II be able to (ab)use her?
              Whatever the source says, no matter what other people seem to think, I will be bending my mind: seeking my truth.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Aezvina View Post
                More of the same I agree that the before situation Kosh mentioned didn't involve Sheridan, the whole thing of Kosh "dancing trough Sheridans mind" (because I really do think it was a little more then just listening to the song) started at the Streib encounter if I remember corretly. That in ways convinced me the Streib were connected to the Vorlon, looking for order, putting things into catogories etc.

                I don't think it was Sinclair/Valen, in the scene where where he is welcomed on B4 there are two vorlon in the background both wearing the Kosh II encounter suits. I'm also not sure about Lyta, if she had been touched by Kosh would Kosh II be able to (ab)use her?
                I never connected the Streib to the Vorlons - but to the Shadows instead. The faces that tortured Sheridan in "All alone in the night", seemed to be similar to the ones that checked Londo if he was "suitable" for a keeper in "Movements of Fire and Shadow".

                Kosh never says he met Sinclair/Valen at the discovery of Babylon 4 by the Minbari a thousand years ago. Sinclair wrote the letter to himself 900 hundred years ago (War without end), which means Kosh had a long window of time (about a hundred years) to meet Sinclair/Valen.

                The Vorlons "used" Lyta as a weapon, as a spy, etc... Lyta was at their mercy. Only Kosh cared for the younger races, the other Vorlons did not.
                Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side and the truth.
                John Sheridan

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by DeMonk View Post
                  I never connected the Streib to the Vorlons - but to the Shadows instead. The faces that tortured Sheridan in "All alone in the night", seemed to be similar to the ones that checked Londo if he was "suitable" for a keeper in "Movements of Fire and Shadow".
                  Similar, but not the same. I am pretty sure that JMS specifically said that they were not the same race ... in fact, here it is

                  There's no relation between the aliens working for the shadows
                  and the Streib. The ones you saw in the flash were "doctors" of a sort
                  CIS - 05/06/1996
                  This post doesn't specifically relate to the examination of Londo, but they are the same aliens, if memory serves.
                  The Optimist: The glass is half full
                  The Pessimist: The glass is half empty
                  The Engineer: The glass is twice as big as it needs to be

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Garibaldi's Hair View Post
                    Similar, but not the same. I am pretty sure that JMS specifically said that they were not the same race ... in fact, here it is



                    This post doesn't specifically relate to the examination of Londo, but they are the same aliens, if memory serves.
                    Thanks. So, there are at least two similar scary races...
                    Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side and the truth.
                    John Sheridan

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                    • #25
                      The Vorlon's communication / powers as music imagery is present throughout all of the spin-off novels as well. Its very nicely realised and subtly done in the series.

                      It can also be traced to Tolkien's writings on the creation of the universe in the Silmarillion, and the songs of the Valar as they assisted the creator. One of the very many Tolkien references / images in the series.

                      Hmmm... Valar and Vorlon.... similar words...

                      Also, the Lost Tales is another Tolkien reference, to one of the books of short stories. And Legend of the Rangers has the same acronymn.

                      Do we have a master list of Tolkien references in Babylon 5? That would be fun to do if I had a spare year...
                      "Books and ideas are the most effective weapons against intolerance and ignorance."
                      -- Lyndon Baines Johnson, February 11, 1964

                      -- "Gun's don't kill people, rappers do" The GLC

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                      • #26
                        Z'ha'dum - not a million miles from Khazad-dum

                        'Wheel of Fire' would be another big one.

                        'We stand on the bridge, and no one may pass'

                        Parth Galen is a place in Lord of the Rings, although Galen is obviously a historical figure as well.

                        They go on and on..

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                        • #27
                          Aside from the Z'ha'dum; Khazad-dum, one that RMcD mentioned, I'd say the next most noticable one would be Lorien.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by DeMonk View Post
                            I never connected the Streib to the Vorlons - but to the Shadows instead. The faces that tortured Sheridan in "All alone in the night", seemed to be similar to the ones that checked Londo if he was "suitable" for a keeper in "Movements of Fire and Shadow".
                            Funny thing how my memory makes B5 even more interesting, I forgot about those aliens, the series just continues to puzzle me and everytime I watch it I see new things. Will be taking out my dvd's to compare the episode with the Strieb and the one where Londo is screened and poked by the tall fingerfolks.

                            And Garibaldi's Hair, that is interesting.

                            No single comment on the lord of the rings, need to find that window of oppurtunity to read it someday.. shame on me.
                            Whatever the source says, no matter what other people seem to think, I will be bending my mind: seeking my truth.

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