Seeking understanding - Much to ask of Kosh

[DeMonk]

In "Hunter, Prey" Sheridan challenges Kosh, seeking mutual understanding. Among other things, he wants to know about his vision in "All Alone in the Night".
Kosh answers, "I sought understanding. I listened to the song. Your thoughts became the song."
Sheridan asks, "Has this ever happened before?" and Kosh says, "Once."
Now, that's a weird question to ask first. He doesn't ask why he's spying on him û being a military man wouldn't that be the first thing on his mind? û or how he's doing it. He simply wants to know if it had happened before. Why was that question important?
So, what happened the previous time, when was it and why wasn't Sheridan aware of it?
And what are the implications? Was the vision information Kosh had picked up and passed to him or was it Sheridan's unconscious awareness that came to the surface?

[RMcD]

It does seem like an odd question.

The 'reality check' answer: I would guess that it's tied into the way that writing often works backwards - JMS knew that he wanted Kosh to give that response, and having Sheridan ask him directly was simply the easiest way to work in the line, even if it didn't make 100% sense for him to jump straight to that particular question.

A 'story' answer: Sheridan may have gleaned some understanding of the way Kosh's mind worked through his experience and the connection, and was starting to learn how to phrase questions that Kosh was more likely to answer - in particular, ones that could be answered in a single word.

I reckon the 'once' answer might refer to the incident with Talia in Deathwalker (as it says on the Lurker's Guide). Otherwise it's conceivable that a piece of Kosh was travelling in Lyta between scanning him in the Gathering and returning in Divided Loyalties (when she says she enjoys opening a small door in her mind and listening to Kosh singing her to sleep). Perhaps he stuck it in her as a survival mechanism when he thought he was dying. Whichever it was, for Kosh this might well have been 'the first time', or perhaps first time with a human, and might have been an accident. Planting himself in Sheridan would have been further experimentation..

[DeMonk]

I reckon the 'once' answer might refer to the incident with Talia in Deathwalker (as it says on the Lurker's Guide). Otherwise it's conceivable that a piece of Kosh was travelling in Lyta between scanning him in the Gathering and returning in Divided Loyalties (when she says she enjoys opening a small door in her mind and listening to Kosh singing her to sleep). Perhaps he stuck it in her as a survival mechanism when he thought he was dying. Whichever it was, for Kosh this might well have been 'the first time', or perhaps first time with a human, and might have been an accident. Planting himself in Sheridan would have been further experimentation..

I don't see how that could be. Sinclair was commander of the station when the deathwalker incident happened. Sheridan wasn't anywhere near so his "thoughts couldn't have become a song" then.

[Jan]

You're assuming that the other time Kosh referred to was with Sheridan. I never assumed that. I figured that the question was more along the lines of "Has this ever happened before at all?" rather than "Has this ever happened with my thoughts before?"

Jan

[DeMonk]

You're assuming that the other time Kosh referred to was with Sheridan. I never assumed that. I figured that the question was more along the lines of "Has this ever happened before at all?" rather than "Has this ever happened with my thoughts before?"

Jan

But Kosh says: YOUR thoughts became the song.

So when Sheridan asks: Has this happened before?, of course I assume that he is talking about HIS thoughts. Wouldn't he have put the question otherwise if he weren't?

[Jan]

I think it's open to interpretation. Kosh didn't say "I was listening to (or for) your thoughts," it seemed more that he was listening to the universe and Sheridan's thoughts...intruded, for lack of a better word. Sheridan's question seemed more along the lines of, "Okay, is that special or does it happen frequently?" to me.

Jan

[DeMonk]

I think it's open to interpretation. Kosh didn't say "I was listening to (or for) your thoughts," it seemed more that he was listening to the universe and Sheridan's thoughts...intruded, for lack of a better word. Sheridan's question seemed more along the lines of, "Okay, is that special or does it happen frequently?" to me.

Jan

Well, you're an optimist. Out of the millions of thoughts Kosh could be hearing, he just happened to pick up Sheridan's?
And I was under the illusion Kosh was helping in the search his way.

[Macbeth]

Well, you're an optimist. Out of the millions of thoughts Kosh could be hearing, he just happened to pick up Sheridan's?
And I was under the illusion Kosh was helping in the search his way.

WWE & Z'ha'dum- "the One" "the Nexus" Into The Fire - he speaks for all the younger races. Perhaps Sheridan is not just more random thoughts, but a big deal stomping around in The Song. Same as Sinclair and Delenn

[RMcD]

Kosh was watching Sheridan. As Sheridan says, he hardly ever showed up to council meetings before Sheridan came aboard (and he's changed his habits as early as Revelations). Sheridan isn't a normal person - he's 'the One Who Will Be'. Zathras knows this - when he first meets Sheridan he's honoured for 'many other reasons' that he can't specify. And if Zathras knows it, and the knowledge is out there, it's not impossible that Kosh would know it as well.

Also, it wouldn't be completely unprecedented for Kosh to answer a question in a broader context than the questioner intended. Although one of the things I like most about Kosh is that, when you rewatch the series, you realise that a lot of what he says is pretty straightforward within the bounds of what he's able to reveal, and it must frustrate him to be described as 'cryptic' all the time.

[iamsheridan]

But Kosh says: YOUR thoughts became the song.

So when Sheridan asks: Has this happened before?, of course I assume that he is talking about HIS thoughts. Wouldn't he have put the question otherwise if he weren't?

I always thought that he meant "Has anybody's thoughts become the song before?". First when I heard it, I thought he meant Christ. But considering that it is JMS, it could just as well have been Muhammed, Buddha or any such person.

But then it dawned on me: The first time was with Valen! So that's my guess.

Regards,
/IamS

[jahkneebee]

This is obviously going to ruffle someone's concepts:

I never questioned my intuition or thought twice. Kosh was referring to Valen.

Kosh answers, "I sought understanding. I listened to the song. Your thoughts became the song."
Sheridan asks, "Has this ever happened before?" and Kosh says, "Once."

What happened before was that a human's thoughts had become the song.

Defining 'the song' would be the cryptic part that would lead to the sword's third edge.

[RMcD]

Hang on a sec.. I took it as read that what Kosh is describing here is the process of breaking off a piece of his consciousness and placing it in another living being. I doubt even a Vorlon would be strong enough telepathically to communicate with Sheridan in the Streib ship, which was in another sector, unless Sheridan had been carrying a piece of Kosh with him at the time..

[moreorless]

I always thought that he meant "Has anybody's thoughts become the song before?". First when I heard it, I thought he meant Christ. But considering that it is JMS, it could just as well have been Muhammed, Buddha or any such person.

But then it dawned on me: The first time was with Valen! So that's my guess.

Regards,
/IamS

Thats what I always assumed(after having watched the whole series anyway), it would certainly account for the predictions.

[Kevin]

The way it's phrased... I always just assumed he was talking about someone else. That's really what I think it implies... also, Sheridan was aware *something* was going on when it happened, and if it had been Sheridan he was referring to with the "once" comment, than he should have known it had happened before.

I really think the argument that it was Valen is a strong one, as jms has said much of Kosh's feelings towards the younger races was due to his relationship with Valen.

I also think one can make an argument for Lyta, who obviously had a strong experience with Kosh during the events of The Gathering, as noted by her comments to Kosh at the end of Divided Loyalties.

[B5_Obsessed]

I assumed "once" to refer to someone else.

Sort of jms's was of saying, "but that's another story."