Season 5 on DVD

[Anders]

Amazon.com has already shipped season 5 to me on DVD, and now I'm just waiting to get it in the post. Has anyone gotten it yet? If so, were you pleased with it? If you hadn't watched the episodes in a while, was there any great moments that you had totally forgotten about?

[Ranger1]

Yeah i got an email that they sent it to me as well 2 days ago,season 5 is my least favorite season,but il bet i would enjoy watching it.

[Anders]

It took a while, but finally I got it yesterday. I only had time to watch the three first episodes, and I remembered extraordinarily little of them from before.

The Babylon 5 poll results, are usually very logical and good, but I think the first episodes in season 5 got unfairly low ratings. I actually enjoyed episode one and three better than episode two, which was the only of the first seven first episodes with a decent rating. http://homepages.ge.ucl.ac.uk/~jmorley/b5_poll.html

I watched season 5 before, on tv, between september 98 and march 99, but neither then nor now have I understood why Byron and Captain Lochley was criticised so much. Doesn't Babylon 5 fans handle changes well? Could that be a contributing factor to Crusade and LOTR failing? I always thought the original cast was great, but that it was the story and the universe that was the key factors to the series being what it was, and that it could have been just as good with another cast of good actors. The way the series was made, the set and the good graphics was important as well of course.

[Jan]

Originally posted by Anders
I watched season 5 before, on tv, between september 98 and march 99, but neither then nor now have I understood why Byron and Captain Lochley was criticised so much. Doesn't Babylon 5 fans handle changes well? Could that be a contributing factor to Crusade and LOTR failing?

Somebody mentioned recently that perhaps it was Byron's followers that people disliked and there may be something to that. We never really learned anything about any of them except that 'special Simon' had had a traumatic experience on Mars. Unlike the rogue teeps in the B5 underground who told their stories to Talia, we were only told that Byron's followers had been hunted and persecuted. Over time, I noticed how JMS could have characters who didn't speak, as few or none of the teeps did until it some broke away. In this case I think it was a mistake because the audience didn't have any personal feel for their desperation.

I agree completely that the dislike of Lochley was almost entirely a backlash from the fact that she was slotted into Ivanova's job. Though I don't think that Tracey handled humor as well as Claudia, I thought she did a great job in fleshing out her character in a very short time. Due to the Claudia situation, I don't think she was ever given a fair chance.

The loss of Crusade couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fans because it was cancelled before anybody saw a frame of it. TNT noticed that it didn't gain any viewers; that the TNT-ites tuned out when B5 was on and came back after, and the B5-ers tuned in only for B5 and then tuned out again. All of the difficulties put in JMS' way were ploys to try to help TNT get out of it's agreement ("we're not getting the show we were promised, look at everything we're having to do to keep it on track"-hypothetical whine).

Technically, that LoTR didn't go to series couldn't have anything to do with the fan's dislike of change since they couldn't know what they liked or didn't before it aired. The ratings were good, but not good enough (due to the Football Game of the Century or something) was the bottom line. Contrary to fan wishes, Sci-Fi *can't* sell advertising based on "This is what the ratings would have been if the football game hadn't messed things up". The number is what the number is. Could SF have taken a chance? Sure. But they didn't.

Now all that said, I agree that there are cases where B5 fans don't take to change well. Aside from the ratings thing, I think that many fans wouldn't accept any of the LoTR cast because they were new. Then there was the dislike of Evan Chen's music on Crusade.

To be fair, though, the fans certainly accepted plenty of changes over the course of B5, too. Sinclair/Sheridan, Talia/Lyta, adding Marcus. So I guess it really comes down to the fact that some things work and some things don't. If anybody knew why, they'd make a fortune in show business, that's for sure!

Jan

[SpooRancher]

Crusade on TNT

The main reason I never got to see any of the Crusade episodes on TNT was that it kept getting bumped for dog shows, extended views of wrestling, or some such nonsense, and after a while, I figured "why bother". I still have not seen more than about 5 episodes of Crusade.

Tis a shame. TNT killed it. Viciously. And because of that, we won't get that lost Bester episode.

(if anyone has a link to the script of that one, I would appreciate it).

[CRONAN]

First, download and install kazaa or shareaza. Then type ''crusade script'' and press ''search''. That'll learn ya.

[Jan]

Originally posted by CRONAN
First, download and install kazaa or shareaza. Then type ''crusade script'' and press ''search''. That'll learn ya.

And remember, please, that JMS has specifically asked that the scripts *not* be shared around.

Folks, if you must talk about how to obtain pirated scripts, could you *please* use private messages or email?!?!?!?

Jan

[Kevin]

Yeeeeeeah we had a big fight about posting this stuff here earlier, and I think everyone was in agreeance that it *not* be done in this fourm...

Synoposis do exist for this stuff that you guys can read and get a pretty damn good idea of the episode and still not go up against JMS's wishes... please do so, but if you don't, please keep it off this fourm.

[grumbler]

I think B5 fans are like any other fans: they want more of the same, even when it isn't good for them or the franchise.

I didn't like Chen's music for crusade or CtA because I was expecting something different and more familiar. As I rewatched the episodes, though, I became convinced that the scoring was one of the strengths of Crusade and it was just something we had to get used to (as I would say also for DS9's scoring, which I started out hating and ended up loving).

Crusade never had the chance to prove the worth of Chen's scoring, alas.

And I agree with those who say the synopses of the "lost episodes" of Crusade are all we need. Frankly, given those, I don't particularly care about the scripts. I am interested in the stories and revelations, not the camera angles.

[iamsheridan]

Originally posted by Jan
I agree completely that the dislike of Lochley was almost entirely a backlash from the fact that she was slotted into Ivanova's job. Though I don't think that Tracey handled humor as well as Claudia, I thought she did a great job in fleshing out her character in a very short time. Due to the Claudia situation, I don't think she was ever given a fair chance.

Jan

Spoilers concerning Lochley follow...


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I disliked Lochley because of the fact that she was -- SHERIDANS EX WIFE!

Had he just once during the past three years used the frase "My ex-wive this and that" (not meaning Anna, of course) I would have been happy.

To explain the trust that Sheridan puts in Lochley JMS could have let Sheridan serve under her when she was just a lowley lieutenant or something like that, or her family being friends with his (or Anna's!) family, or she being the liaison on Minbar or...
Do I need to go on?

And of course she suffers from the "Last Action Hero" syndrome: she's too young and beautiful for the job! I would have liked to see (e.g.) the female Earth Force captain who surrendered at the Battle of Proxima 3. She was equally beautiful but of a more "realistic" age.

Just my 2c

/IamS

[Anders]

I watched five more episodes yesterday, so I have now seen the first eigth episodes. As always all the episodes were really good. A View From the Gallery, the episode with two station personell, named Mack and Bo, was quite original and funny, I liked it.

I saw that Day of the Dead has been listed as both episode 8 and episode 11, why is this?

Episode 8: http://homepages.ge.ucl.ac.uk/~jmorley/b5_poll.html
Episode 11: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/eplist.html#season5

It's also episode 8 on the DVD's.

[Kevin]

The reason you mentioned for disliking her is the main reason why JMS never made reference to it ever again during the tenure of Season 5: fans hated it

But I don't think it was out of character for him not to mention her... like he said, she was barely married to him at all. And Anna had been such an important part of his life by the time he was on B5... to be blunt, Lochely to him probably at all didn't seem to deserve to be on the same level as Anna. Anna was his *wife* to him at the time, wheras Lochely was a mistake.

Could there have been a better connection? Perhaps, but I think JMS wanted to really make her part of the family, and that was the quickest and easiest way of doing it, especially considering that there a *lot* of new viewers to the show, and jms must have been eager to tie the characters together through something anyone could easily understand and see the weight of: marriage.

Also, not to shoot at you or anything (Lochely is not one of my favourite characters, although I can't say I have any problem with her either), but we are in Hollywood, people are going to be pretty good looking ;P And also Lochely's character is going to try to look her best; that's human nature and nothing wrong about it. And Tracy Scoogins is actually the exact same age as the actress who played the EarthForce commander, so you can't really complain about her being too young And, to be kind of blunt and let my opinion out here for a second, you need someone who has good experience to be able to take on a major part in a already-existing show in it's final season. Say what you want about Lochely, I really do believe Scoogins to be a capable actress who did hold her own.

Christ, can't believe I just wrote a big Lochely defending post. Times have changed :P And when I look back on it... I really agree with both points. I think the Ivanova backlash Jan mentions was the biggest thing, but the Sheridan's ex wife thing certainly didn't help out much at all ;P

[Anders]

Thank you for your reply Jan.

Originally posted by Jan
Somebody mentioned recently that perhaps it was Byron's followers that people disliked.

I can understand that, although there have been several characters in Babylon 5 we haven't gotten to know well. These guys did seem to suddenly appear in a lot of episodes though, and only Byron was talking. Then there was also the singing scene.

As for Byron himself though, I don't think he is especially annoying, and find his character quite interesting. I respect that other people might feel differently of course, but if the criticism was just for the actor/character, I found it a bit odd.

Originally posted by Jan
I agree completely that the dislike of Lochley was almost entirely a backlash from the fact that she was slotted into Ivanova's job.

It was a shame she left the show. Tracy Scoggins did a fine job as Lochley though, and she was an interesting character from the second she walked into the show. Even the part about her previous relationship with Sheridan was ok. They were only married for three months, at the beginning of their military career. It's obvious that he would trust her more that way, than in almost any other way. He wanted someone from the "other" side during the war, so she was the perfect choice. I heard on one of the DVD commentaries in an earlier season, that Bruce Boxleitner didn't like that particulary story, but I disagree. I think it works fine.

Iamsheridan how often do you mention your old girlfriends that you dated for a few months, to people you have gotten to know afterwards? When he just started out at Babylon 5 there was nothing he would need her for, and when they broke free from earth, she was on the other side, another reason not to mention her.

Originally posted by Jan
The loss of Crusade couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fans.

&

Originally posted by Jan
Technically, that LoTR didn't go to series couldn't have anything to do with the fan's dislike of change.

I knew I would get these answers, so it was a bit stupid of me to ask the question in the way I did. I've read JMS comments on why they didn't succeed.

However, I have read numerous criticisms from fans about the characters and plots on the two. Jerry Doyle also mentioned something in a commentary, about B5 never working with another cast than the original one.

Originally posted by Jan
To be fair, though, the fans certainly accepted plenty of changes over the course of B5, too. Sinclair/Sheridan, Talia/Lyta, adding Marcus.

True.

Talia was set up to be the bad guy though, so it wasn't that hard to see her go.

Marcus is impossible not to like. By the end of season 4, any B5 fan would be sad to see him go/die. I really believe that.

Sinclair/Sheridan, that was the big one. In a way they are as similar & as different, as Lochley and Ivanova is to eachother. This was also the change that it was hardest for me to accept. I am usually very open to change, but I had grown quite fond of Sinclair. Bruce did a fantastic job though, and season 2 just got more and more interesting as the episodes went by. By the middle of the season, I accepted the change completely, although a part of me will always miss Sinclair as B5 captain.

I am not saying that B5 fans are bad or anything like that, I am one myself, and I have been so for many years now. It just seems that most things that have happened after season 4 has gotten unfairly much criticism.

[Jan]

Anders wrote:

It just seems that most things that have happened after season 4 has gotten unfairly much criticism.

I agree completely with that. And I tend to think it's not due to any real faults of the season/episodes/movies, it's because they're *different*. People criticized 'Thirdspace' because it wasn't arc-related, it had a different feel etc. It was different because it's something JMS wanted to play with; just as he's played and experimented throughout B5.

I keep seeing people wishing for a new series or miniseries or trilogy because 'it's the arc that's so special about B5'. I'm not slamming that because I agree that it's *one* of the things that's so special. But if I know JMS, there were plenty of arc-related things set up in Crusade and Season 5 and even LoTR that if we watch and listen, we may just see progressing. That's what I think is so special about B5-that it rewards watching multiple times.

Jan

[Jan]

Originally posted by Anders
I saw that Day of the Dead has been listed as both episode 8 and episode 11, why is this?

Episode 8: http://homepages.ge.ucl.ac.uk/~jmorley/b5_poll.html
Episode 11: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/eplist.html#season5

It's also episode 8 on the DVD's.

I think it has to do with when it aired. From the Lurker's Guide, JMS said:

We felt it wise to adjust the airing order so we could ramp up the following episodes prior to the NBA delay without having any interruption in the tone of the episodes (i.e., 2 tense, 1 funny, 2 tense vs 1 funny and 4 tense in a row).

and

We suggested moving up DotD because the NBA playoffs will hit after #12, and better to have 3-4 intense episodes in a row, culminating in 12, than to break up the middle, which would've been okay as a respite if there wasn't going to be a break, but since there is a break now, I want to slam the last few before it hits for more impact.

The actual production number is 511.

Jan