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Poll: The most boring sub-plot in B5

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  • #16
    Actually i think the minbari version was the better joke. *KOSH*

    Excuse me.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Lily
      As for the worst piece of acting (and I was spoilt for choice for this one as I think this actor is by far the most appaling actor in the entire show - including the Gropos!!!!) was Delenn's performance in "And Now for a Word" in season 2. She's being interviewed by the ISN reporter about the Earth - Mimbari war - starts bawling, and proceeds to chew her knuckles like something out of a 1920's silent movie melodrama!!!! It's priceless!!! We rewatch it all the time and laugh ourselves sick!!!! I know that this is supposed to represent the more emotional side to Delann after she gets a head of hair, but please!!!! The knuckle biting? ??? At least it's good for a laugh!!!
      Delenn was outstanding for most of the show, but you are right that this scene was pretty dreadful from start to finish. It was even more unbelievable than Sinclair's confrontation with the Ikarran death machine, and THAT was pretty painful to watch.

      What's worse about the Delenn scene is that it is so completely out of charactor. She hangs together in much, much worse places than that. The questions of the reporter are also incredibly inane.
      I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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      • #18
        It is now time to inform you that you have officially slipped. While you have been good at uncovering some of the stinky plots, you have missed the obvious.

        What is the worst ep in S1?

        TKO.

        The worst subplot is the multi-racial fighting tournament. BloodSport in OuterSpace.
        "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

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        • #19
          Originally posted by grumbler
          Delenn was outstanding for most of the show, but you are right that this scene was pretty dreadful from start to finish. It was even more unbelievable than Sinclair's confrontation with the Ikarran death machine, and THAT was pretty painful to watch.

          What's worse about the Delenn scene is that it is so completely out of charactor. She hangs together in much, much worse places than that.
          I have to disagree with you there. In the episodes prior to this, it's shown that Delenn is in trouble with the Grey Council, being ostracized by other Minbari on the station, has been taunted and attacked by humans and is having to adjust to an entirely new physiology with a whole new set of hormones (not to mention having hair). Add all that up with her unfamiliarity with the intrusiveness of reporters and a question that rubs her nose in all of the above and I think that her being upset was pretty understandable.

          Considering how service to her people is the pinnacle to which Minbari strive and how badly her people were reacting to her, what 'much, much worse' did she hang together through?

          Jan
          "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Jan
            I have to disagree with you there. In the episodes prior to this, it's shown that Delenn is in trouble with the Grey Council, being ostracized by other Minbari on the station, has been taunted and attacked by humans and is having to adjust to an entirely new physiology with a whole new set of hormones (not to mention having hair). Add all that up with her unfamiliarity with the intrusiveness of reporters and a question that rubs her nose in all of the above and I think that her being upset was pretty understandable.

            Considering how service to her people is the pinnacle to which Minbari strive and how badly her people were reacting to her, what 'much, much worse' did she hang together through?

            Jan
            Actually, you answered your own question: she is rejected by her own people, and neither cries nor bites her knuckles.

            Later, she tells G'Kar that she knowingly let his people die, and she neither cries not bites her knuckles.

            Both of those situations were, IMO, "far, far worse" than a boneheaded question from an earth reporter which could easily have been answered "I made this sacrifice to ensurethat their lives were not lost in vain."

            Like I said, bad writing and awkward acting (the latter probably blamable on the former).
            I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by NotKosh
              It is now time to inform you that you have officially slipped. While you have been good at uncovering some of the stinky plots, you have missed the obvious.

              What is the worst ep in S1?

              TKO.

              The worst subplot is the multi-racial fighting tournament. BloodSport in OuterSpace.
              I hated that episode when it came out, and never watched it on tape.

              When the DVD came out, and I was obliged to watch it again to see the whole series, my feelings on it changed quite dramatically. Sure, it was awkward in places, but it felt much more "arcish" after seeing later how important the LNAL was to become. The episode established (maybe unintentionally) to the average LNAW grunt (who follows sports, not politics) that maybe these humans were tough bastards after all.

              I just wish the mutai had been established as something important in the development of the LNAW to make the episode meaningful to the first-time viewer, rather than being presented, as it was, as essencially a "racist gig."

              Nope, not the worst of the season one eps. That is undeniably "Infection" in spite of the guest star and the writer.
              I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

              Comment


              • #22
                Both of those situations were, IMO, "far, far worse" than a boneheaded question from an earth reporter which could easily have been answered "I made this sacrifice to ensuret that their lives were not lost in vain."
                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Had Delenn responded with that line, I think the reporter would have had a field day. Who's death did Delenn consider ''necessary''? Where was the noble and just cause?

                Imagine the headlines: ''Bloodthirsty, transvestite minbari on Channel 6 EXCLUSIVE! Dont miss it!

                In ''B5 In the Begining'' Delenn admits to the pointlessness of the war later on, and dont forget; she is among those directly responsible for starting the war in the first place.

                Perhaps this is the first time anyone had blamed her directly. The reporter did, after all, throw it in her face point blank. I dont think Delenns reaction to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of humans, ones she could have prevented, is unreasonable at all.
                Last edited by CRONAN; 04-08-2004, 03:08 AM.

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                • #23
                  At the moment I tend to agree with Cronon's opinion of the Delenn interview, as well as others who have supported the view of it being in-character. Having recently watched Season 2... she really isn't all that tough. You see her on the verge of tears when her people ask if they can send a representative of their to speak to the Grey Council on a certain matter, same with when she talks to G'kar much later down the road. But, on later incidents (such as one Minbari calling her a "freak" in "There Lies All Honor", she completely runs out of the room, inable to face it.) The point, as others have gotten on here, is that was the first time she was thrown into a situation with someone directly questioning her without any respect for her position AND nowhere for her to run. And at this point in the arc, she's still coming to terms with what she is.

                  Delenn is a significantly different character after Comes the Inquisitor, and it's important to remember that.

                  Regardless, I don't think of TJO as that bad of an episode, and while the plot of Infection is pretty bad, it a nifty episode just because jms hides the morale of the Babylon 5 story in it ("When you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy") and it has a touching scene with Garibaldi and Sinclair when Garibaldi confronts him about his reckless attitude (and in reality, death wish), something I've seen very little in sci-fi.

                  My vote, for worst Season 1 episode (which it seems we're now discussing ;P) would probably be for Grail, which is almost completely about guest characters with no arc info nor any nice character stuff. The only gem is the court scene in the beginning, and I get the feeling that while this was a freelance script, JMS had to do a lot of work to try to fix it up so it resembled B5 (he wrote the court scene, and changed the ending so that it was the security team who killed the nakaleen feeder. Originally Kosh came out and killed it, spat off a lame line like "Some things we don't allow" and ran away).

                  Also is the episode with the most continuity errors; uses the system of cycles which was abandoned early on in favor of a regular time system (except when referring to alien's base unit of times, but even alien cycles were nothing like the ones used in this episode), has Lennier comment that there are only 2 castes of Minbari, etc. An episode I usually skip when watching through Season 1.

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                  • #24
                    I liked the ''curse'' of the construction worker thread in that ep though. Esp Ivonivas line ''No boom today. Boom tomorrow. Theres always a boom tomorrow.''

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                    • #25
                      Re: Poll: The most boring sub-plot in B5

                      Originally posted by Ranger1
                      Walkabout,the whole deal with Franklin and that singer...those parts are the only thing in my entire B5 collection that i fast forward every time
                      I think that qualifies as an "episode/chapter" not a subplot. The subplot, Franklin's drug addiction, actually extends across two years, and it's one of my favorites.



                      Now for an ACTUAL subplot, I think the Talia, Ironside "gift", and Vorlon recording machine qualifies as the worst sub-plot. Mainly because it didn't go anywhere except a dead end.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Jan
                        Add all that up with her unfamiliarity with the intrusiveness of reporters and a question that rubs her nose in all of the above and I think that her being upset was pretty understandable.
                        Delenn's reaction to the reporter reminds me of my Japanese friend's reaction to a forceful insurance agent. She cried. Being Japanese, she was surprised by the American insurance agent's attitude. (The agent basically accused her of causing the accident.)

                        I suspect Delenn had a similar moment of culture shock. Think of Delenn as a Japanese woman being hounded by an American asshole... er, reporter.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: jms and sex

                          Originally posted by nyarlat
                          The only really worse episode was the one where Ivanova was supposed to have sex with some trader. Why in hell did he make up such a childish story? What┤s so bad about sex that jms must write this?
                          (1) Where does jms say sex is "bad"? He does not. Strawman argument.

                          (2) Given thousands of alien cultures, I'm sure sometime/somewhere one will use sex (instead of a handshake or contract) to seal the deal. Hell, even in the Christian Bible you can find an example where a "holy man" named Lot offers free sex with his daughters to soldiers. Different cultures/different methods. That's what the episode was intended to address.

                          (3) JMS backs up point #2: "Actually, not to split hairs, the idea of sex sealing deals goes back a heck of a lot longer than Larry Niven. It's been part of treaty signing and stuff going back to ancient Egypt, other parts of the middle east, even parts of medeival europe. "

                          (4) Now for your homework, go read Isaac Asimov's* "The Gods Themselves" which is 75% about alien sex. No, not because Asimov is a lecher, but because sex is an integral part of this particular alien culture. (Instead of male-female, they have 3 sexes: Intellect,Parental,Emotional!)

                          ;-)

                          *The Grandmaster of Science Fiction

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                          • #28
                            Re: Re: Poll: The most boring sub-plot in B5

                            Originally posted by RCmodeler
                            Now for an ACTUAL subplot, I think the Talia, Ironside "gift", and Vorlon recording machine qualifies as the worst sub-plot. Mainly because it didn't go anywhere except a dead end.
                            Only reason it never came up was because Andrea Thompson left the show. Had she stayed on, these events would have been the foundation for her super-teepness.

                            And don't discount that plot device yet. JMS ain't done with the Telepath story, and it may still come up down the road.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Re: jms and sex

                              (2) Given thousands of alien cultures, I'm sure sometime/somewhere one will use sex (instead of a handshake or contract) to seal the deal. Hell, even in the Christian Bible you can find an example where a "holy man" named Lot offers free sex with his daughters to soldiers. Different cultures/different methods. That's what the episode was intended to address.
                              There are rumours that the casting couch still crawls out of the woodwork in Hollywood.
                              Andrew Swallow

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                              • #30
                                Re: Re: Re: Poll: The most boring sub-plot in B5

                                Originally posted by Kevin
                                Only reason it never came up was because Andrea Thompson left the show. Had she stayed on, these events would have been the foundation for her super-teepness.

                                And don't discount that plot device yet. JMS ain't done with the Telepath story, and it may still come up down the road.
                                (1) Okay, but it doesn't change my opinion that the Talia/Ironside/Mind Recorder still qualifies as the worst subplot.

                                (2) JMS may not be done, but Babylon 5 is. (And no, I don't think the movie will have Talia in it...dead is dead...besides it will likely be about Sheridan/Delenn/Londo and their son.)

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