Poll: The most boring sub-plot in B5

[Ranger1]

Walkabout,the whole deal with Franklin and that singer...those parts are the only thing in my entire B5 collection that i fast forward every time

[Davco92]

I actually enjoyed parts of that little sub-plot. I liked the imagery and how his "soul" looked more whole in the last image at the end, foreshadowing (pun intended) his eventual recovery. The fact that the singer was dying and chose to focus the last few months of her life on trying to bring a little happiness to the hopeless and downtrodden in down below was something that Franklin would have done, helping to remind him of what he had lost. Was it the greatest sub-plot? No, not by any means. But I think it had some decent moments. I also liked the fact that in a later episode they briefly mention her death. Foreshadowing, a bit of self-reflection for Franklin, and a completed mini-arc. Very B5.

[Ranger1]

Well its just my own personal opinion,i opened this thread for people to put in what they think is the most boring sub-plot.

[Kevin]

Hmmm... a tought one, but a rather good question and a nice little subject to open up.

At the moment, the only thing that's coming to mind is the Zarg in Grey 17 is Missing... had problems with that subplot on almost every level, making it one of my least favourite episodes (even though the Neroon - Marcus stuff is great and it keeps the arc moving)

[grumbler]

I skip past the Franklin-Franklin confrontation in Shadow dancing, and all of the Edgars-Giribaldi exposition in season four. Not that it was bad the first two times, but it gets old really fast.

[grumbler]

Oh, and I will add that the Zarg bit in grey 17 is Missing is WAY overblown. It only wrecks about 5 minutes of what is otherwise a pretty decent episode.

It IS the "B" story in that episode.

[Davco92]

Originally posted by Ranger1
Well its just my own personal opinion,i opened this thread for people to put in what they think is the most boring sub-plot.

It's an excellent question. I'm just trying to come up with something boring but all I can think of are good moments. LOL! I didn't care too much for the part with Sheridan's sister, until the payoff at the end with the message from Anna. The Sinclair - Catherine Sekai sub-plot was less than totally interesting to me, I guess I just never really "felt it" that strongly.

[CRONAN]

So far there isnt one subplot mentioned here i disagree with....

The main appeal of B5 is the arcing (well written) story line and characters. I like the feel of a show where the environment changes drastically from episode to episode. As such i think most of seasons one, two and a quarter of season three made up the ''filler'' portion.

One theory here is that the arcs will confuse newcommers and make them less likely to watch the show. On the contrary, i think that, if anything, they'll be compelled to stay and see how the darned thing turns out (as evidenced when the total number of viewers dropped by 0.6% right after the Shadow War in ep 407, thanks to whoever posted this.....). Take 24 for example....

I can understand why main the arcs went away in season 4 so i wont complain about that...

If B5 had had more arcs early on it would have been better off....

[iamsheridan]

My vote goes to: The "Jehova's Witnesses" in Believers.
I also thought that the ramblings in Gray 17 was boring. Not to mention the Zarg of course...

/IamS

[CRONAN]

Heres a posting that explains jms's views on the arcs, among othert hings

Phil Adams <[email protected]> asks:
> Is this just us, or has there been a conscious effort to "dumb
> down" or "genericize" (new verb!) the story in order to reach new
> viewers? 8) ); the suddenly-samurai Narn ("gotta draw blood before
> I sheathe this baby!"); the idea of baiting an ancient race into
> doing what you want them to do (how did they make it so far while
> being _so_ stupid?); the name of the Vorlon/Minbari ship (the
> White Star?!!? Minus the story arc elements, there've been a
> number of sour faces going, "Was that a Star Trek or B5 ep?" Are
> we just being unrealistic and too picky?

Phil...I get this at the start of every season. Let me repeat
what I've said, oh, about two dozen times already before.

At the start of every season, we have new people sampling the
show. Do you want the show to continue? If you do, then you have to
continue to add new viewers. If viewers tune in and they're lost in
the overall arc, they're going to tune out again. So you give them
some stand-alone episodes in the beginning, shows that are a little
more accessible, but introduce them to the characters, the situations
and the universe so that when the arc begins to move again, they know
enough to get into what's going on.

Sure, I could've just kept going right with the strong arc
episodes. Which the new viewers, 90% of whom sample shows in the first
few weeks of a new season and not thereafter, wouldn't have been able
to follow well. And they would've tuned out. And it would've been a
very big nail in the cancellation coffin. You can bring in new
viewers, or you can get canceled and never tell the whole story. Pick
one.

Second, you cannot -- CANNOT -- sustain the kind of intensity
you have in the final four over the course of a season. You need to
have some lighter moments as contrast or people are going to start
sticking their heads in ovens all across the country. So at the start
of a season, I try to do some lighter stuff, to bring people back up a
little, bracing for the next drop in the roller coaster. You need
peaks and valleys to develop any kind of rhythm, or to appreciate the
other side of it.

I got the same thing in season one, and season two..."Why these
light episodes? What's happened to this arc?" Then by season's end,
the chorus usually turns to "That was a GREAT season!" So my response
is, Unless you think I've suddenly turned stupid, or I've decided to
betray the series I've now worked 10 years of my life to produce...will
you for chrissakes *trust* me once in a while? Show a little patience.
When I introduced Vir, everybody on the planet jumped funky all over
me. "He's just a comic character! It's Flounder! He's dumbing down
the show! Space him! He stinks! Joe's losing it!" And now, of
course, we see what Vir is, and in many surveys he's now one of the
most popular characters.

You know what the #1 comment from the pilot was, on the nets
and elsewhere? "LOSE the guy with the funny hair! He's just
ridiculous." Londo. Every time I've done something a little different
in the show, I've usually been jumped on, because they're not willing
to trust that I know what I'm doing...until they've seen it for a
while, then they Get It, and it's "Oh, now I see it." Great, thanks,
now that you've been beating on my head for six months. Next time show
a little patience. (And btw, ALL of the comments related above are
real ones, many of them right here on Compuserve, from people still
around here.)

Every story can't be an arc story at this point; you've got to
see the characters outside the arc, in the way they live their lives,
in other things that happen to them, or else you won't CARE what
happens to them in the arc. No, the Purple/Green Drazi story didn't
move the arc ahead, but it showed you a lot about Ivanova, didn't it?
So now if and when something should happen to her in the arc, you care
about her. It's the difference between just being chess pieces, and
being *people*.

Okay, here's the breakdown. Season 3. You had arc episodes
only a bit in the first batch. "Honor," "Voices" and now a little in
"Dust." You've got one more stand-alone next week, "Exogenesis."
That's the last one for a LONG time. Episodes 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15,
16, 17, 20, 21 and 22 are ALL arc stories, most of them heavy, none
less than moderate.

I said, from the start, that each season would have
stand-alones and arc stories. About 20% in year one, 35% in year two,
50% in year three, 70% in year four, and 100% in year five. And the
stand-alones tend to get pushed toward the beginning of a season for
the reasons stated. Is nobody paying attention when I say these
things? Because if so, then why do I get gigged each season at the
start by people saying "HEY! HOW COME THESE AREN'T ARC EPISODES?"
(And as it looks now, year 3 has closer to 13-14 arc episodes, so we're
ahead a bit.)

Before people start making sweeping generalizations about the
season, it might behoove you to see the season first. If anything, my
concern in looking at what's been done for year 3 is that we're too
GRIM for the larger portion of it, and maybe a bit complex...so I'm
working to clarify a few things here and there as I do these last few.

So that's my response to the generalizations. To the
specifics....

The political officer: improbable dialogue? Most of it was
taken direct from political statements, public ones, made by Goebbels,
Hitler, Joseph McCarthy, Stalin, and other fanatics. The kind of Big
Lie dialogue people continue to fall for today. Go to a Pat Buchanan
rally sometime and tell me it's unlikely dialogue.

The chess maneuver: I mainly get this comment from people who
don't play chess much. I used to be a decent (not great, but decent)
player, and I fell for a move out of left field sometimes. (I'm a
sucker for a fool's mate.) Sheridan isn't a chess master, he's still
rough around the edges, and Theo's been doing this a lot longer. He
got foxed. It happens.

"Marcus, the walking cliche." Heard this about Vir, Zack,
Morden, Londo, and others. My prediction: by season's end, Marcus will
be one of our more popular characters. Because you haven't seen all of
what he is yet. Any more than you did Vir on his first two
appearances.

(Y'know, there are days I hate the american culture of
immediate gratification and kneejerk condemnation and stereotyping with
insufficient information. So far there hasn't been an uninteresting
character in the lot. Do you think suddenly I'm going to introduce a
lox? Okay, Keffer wasn't all he could've been, but that was because
that character was always doomed, and doomed to go fast, so I think I
put a little distance between myself and him. That doesn't apply here.
I said Vir was a great character, and some folks snorted and made fun.
I was proven right. So trust me, Marcus is a great character.)

The two small story points...like I said, I went for a lighter
touch in "Voices," because it was the last chance to have some light
moments for a long, long, time.

The White Star was so named as a balance to the Black Star,
which Sheridan destroyed. What here is a problem?

I don't mean to rag on you, Phil...I know your interests are
only the best. But (expletive) it...y'know? I was real patient the
first time I went through this at the top of season one, patient again
at the top of season two...and it's just wearing a bit thin. If I knew
what I was doing then, why should I suddenly not know what I'm doing
now? How many times over do I have to prove myself, and this series?
It seems like everything good I did in the season before gets forgotten
because we just take a BREATH before moving on to the next stage. And
then suddenly it's "The sky is falling! The show's falling apart! The
arc is gone! Ohmygodohmygod!"

Patience, people. I've been faithful, and honest, and straight
with all of you. I haven't let you down yet. And I don't intend to.
Season three collectively represents the very best work we have done on
this show to date. Starting with #8, "Messages From Earth," the arc and
the story kicks into high gear, moving faster than ever before. MAJOR
stuff happens.

And natch, I'll go through this all over again in year four,
because they'll say it doesn't move as fast as year three did. You
can't win. I appreciate the concern, Phil. Honest I do. But I've
always had a problem with people judging the season on a sampling.
Give it a chance.
jms

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Davco92
The Sinclair - Catherine Sekai sub-plot was less than totally interesting to me, I guess I just never really "felt it" that strongly.

Amuesing, since that's actually one of the most popular subplots in the series, so popular infact that it was mostly responsible for Sakai's appearence and level of importance in "To Dream in the City fo Sorrows"

For me it's my favourite relationship shown in the show, because it felt the most real. But to each his own

[Lily]

I'm wracking my brains trying to think of a bad subplot, but other than the ones mentioned (ie Franklin and his walkabout and Garibaldi and Lise) I can't really think of any. I can, however, mention my least favourite episode and worst acting scene.

The worst episode in my opinion, is the one mentioned by iamsheridan - the Believers episode - truly vile.

As for the worst piece of acting (and I was spoilt for choice for this one as I think this actor is by far the most appaling actor in the entire show - including the Gropos!!!!) was Delenn's performance in "And Now for a Word" in season 2. She's being interviewed by the ISN reporter about the Earth - Mimbari war - starts bawling, and proceeds to chew her knuckles like something out of a 1920's silent movie melodrama!!!! It's priceless!!! We rewatch it all the time and laugh ourselves sick!!!! I know that this is supposed to represent the more emotional side to Delann after she gets a head of hair, but please!!!! The knuckle biting? ??? At least it's good for a laugh!!!

[nyarlat]

jms and sex

Hi to all!

The only really worse episode was the one where Ivanova was supposed to have sex with some trader.

Why in hell did he make up such a childish story?
What┤s so bad about sex that jms must write this?

It could have been intresting to see what kind of positions can be introduced by an alien.

wkr
nyarlat

[Ranger1]

Re: jms and sex

Originally posted by nyarlat
Hi to all!

The only really worse episode was the one where Ivanova was supposed to have sex with some trader.

Why in hell did he make up such a childish story?
What┤s so bad about sex that jms must write this?

It could have been intresting to see what kind of positions can be introduced by an alien.

wkr
nyarlat

Ivanova and sex! how can you say its a bad episode? i enjoy watching her no matter what
but that's your opinion

[Ben-Thayer Dunnthaedt]

I would have to say the Byron thread was my least favorite part of the series. Despite the fact that the Telepath crisis is a very important part of the big story, the character was beyond annoying.

The next two aren't really subplots per se, but were among some of my least favorite parts of the series.

Some of Sheridan's "lessons" he quoted from his father were tiresome, very cliche.

And, some of JMS' "humor" fell a little short of the mark as well. The "how many Mindbari does it take to change a lightbulb" was just awful. However, I did find the Centauri version amusing.