Crusade

[Garibaldi's Hair]

But since JMS sold it ...

Just a minor nitpick, but I was under the impression that he wrote the script for TMoS as part of the process of the producers attempting to bring a B5 movie to the screen.

Unlike The Changeling, where JMS wrote a script independently which was then purchased by Imagine, the would-be producers of TMos put up the money to buy (from JMS) the option to make a B5 movie, and commissioned JMS to write the script for it.

When it became clear that they couldn't get the money together (and after JMS had already extended the option once without further payment) they allowed the option to lapse, leaving the movie dead in the water.

As the script was written as a commission ownership of, and rights to, said movie based on said script lie with those doing the commissioning, not the one doing the writing.

JMS is however free to publish the script as a script if he wants to.

As I understand it ...

[qstor]

I'm kinda hoping that something will be done with the Memory of the Shadows script which follows from Crusade IIRC. But since JMS sold it, its up to the owner of the rights.

Mike

[KoshN]

I'll try to dig out those photos sometime; mind you, this is before the real advent of digital cameras where it's so much easier to find things now. So far, I've managed to get several thousand negatives in the same bunch of boxes, so I consider that an improvement.

Been there done that. I have all my negs, slides and prints in one area, and organized. At least I don't have to look all over the house for the stuff. I had my own darkroom in the house, and did B&W darkroom work for 25 years. Gave it all up a couple of years ago and went digital.

Actually, I think Carrie was exaggerating a little bit as far as Peter's makeup was concerned.

She was talking about his usual time in makeup, not that one time he got a prosthetic piece (The Memory of War), and she was joking around.

I seem to recall that was the morning that he had to get a very large prosthetic piece put on his shoulder- there's a very quick shot where we're supposed to see organic circuitry poking out of his shoulder, something that I presume would have been explored in the future, but the director (Tony Dow?) only did a very quick shot, if at all. Maybe it was just as well; I think the guys at Optic Nerve weren't entirely happy with the prosthetic piece and asked me not to publish any of them at the time.

I wasn't happy with it either. Looked too much like plastic LEGO bits stuck to his back, and looked far, far too crude for mage tech. IMHO, they came up with a better description/look in the Technomage trilogy of novels. I wish they'd use that trilogy as a basis for determining the look onscreen in the future.

[vacantlook]

I think Dureena could be my favorite character in all of Crusade; Carrie portrayed her wonderfully. I think I might have a thing for strong and sassy women; I always liked Na'Toth (Julie Caitlin Brown's version, that is) too. Not being able to see how Dureena was going to develop and change over the course of the show is one of my biggest let-downs from Crusade's cancellation.

Maybe it was just as well; I think the guys at Optic Nerve weren't entirely happy with the prosthetic piece and asked me not to publish any of them at the time.

If my memory serves of what is visible in the shot, I don't blame them for being dissatisfied with the prosthetic. What I remember of it looked blocky and clunky and unrealistic for something that's supposed to be a piece of highly advanced, sleek technology.

[Joe Nazzaro]

I'll try to dig out those photos sometime; mind you, this is before the real advent of digital cameras where it's so much easier to find things now. So far, I've managed to get several thousand negatives in the same bunch of boxes, so I consider that an improvement.

Actually, I think Carrie was exaggerating a little bit as far as Peter's makeup was concerned. I seem to recall that was the morning that he had to get a very large prosthetic piece put on his shoulder- there's a very quick shot where we're supposed to see organic circuitry poking out of his shoulder, something that I presume would have been explored in the future, but the director (Tony Dow?) only did a very quick shot, if at all. Maybe it was just as well; I think the guys at Optic Nerve weren't entirely happy with the prosthetic piece and asked me not to publish any of them at the time.

[KoshN]

I have some wonderful photos somewhere from 'Memory of War,' from when Carrie Dobro came out of makeup completely covered in grime from head to toe.

Well, dig 'em up!

You would have thought she'd be less than happy about it,

Yeah, especially after what she said in the commentary about having to show up several hours early to get all her makeup done, and all Peter Woodward had to do was breeze in 5 minutes ahead of time and get his head buffed. lol She seemed to be a good sport.

but she seemed to be having a hell of a lot of fun that afternoon.

I take it you were on the set?

[Joe Nazzaro]

I have some wonderful photos somewhere from 'Memory of War,' from when Carried Dobro came out of makeup completely covered in grime from head to toe. You would have thought she'd be less than happy about it, but she seemed to be having a hell of a lot of fun that afternoon.

[KoshN]

I think the point you make is that the characters do much better when the series is seen in the proper sequence. I would absolutely agree. Eilerson's deletion in "Patterns" seemed way out of character - unless it's in the middle of the series.

A little past the middle, IIRC.

And some of the eight gray uniform episodes work better in sequence. Path of Sorrows, for example, was good in the DVD sequence, but is far better after you've gotten to know the characters a little bit. It packs a much greater punch at that point. Same goes for the Well of Forever, one of my personal favorites.

I've seen all of the episodes so many times that they all work well for me. I practically have 'em memorized. Initially, I didn't much like The Well of Forever, The Needs of Earth or Ruling from the Tomb because nothing much happened in them. Now, I enjoy them all for their character moments.

Still, the show had its share of wonderful moments. My particular favorite is in "Memory of War" (I think) when Dureena brings back Galen's staff from the ruins. No words (that I remember). None needed. Just looks that speak volumes. That's when you know a series is going well - when they don't even need dialogue for you to know what they're thinking.

You're right on all counts.

[Hal_10000]

the scene near the end of "Patterns of the Soul" when even under pressure from IPX, he deletes the part of his report that talks about the discovery of the lost tribe of Dureena's people

I think the point you make is that the characters do much better when the series is seen in the proper sequence. I would absolutely agree. Eilerson's deletion in "Patterns" seemed way out of character - unless it's in the middle of the series. And some of the eight gray uniform episodes work better in sequence. Path of Sorrows, for example, was good in the DVD sequence, but is far better after you've gotten to know the characters a little bit. It packs a much greater punch at that point. Same goes for the Well of Forever, one of my personal favorites.

Still, the show had its share of wonderful moments. My particular favorite is in "Memory of War" (I think) when Dureena brings back Galen's staff from the ruins. No words (that I remember). None needed. Just looks that speak volumes. That's when you know a series is going well - when they don't even need dialogue for you to know what they're thinking.

[KoshN]

I just watched Crusade for the first time. I don't know that it would have been the triumph that B5 was, but it certaintly deserved a shot. And listening to JMS's usual outstanding commentary on episode 9 made me lament that we never got to see what he had planned.

What's amazing is the difference between the "last" (first) five episodes and the rest of the series. Those other five have more of the JMS feel - big concepts, epic scale, moral dilemmas. I loved the music, the Excalibur herself and the shapes the characters were taking,

However, the JMS feel comes through in all of them, even "War Zone."

....although I found Eileson annoying.

Eilerson grows on you, over time. It helps to see the episodes in the correct Eilerson order, because he gets less arrogant, less annoying and more human. Witness the scenes near the end of "Appearances and Other Deceits" when he's talking to Dr. Chambers about the use of Greenberg's body, the scene near the end of "Patterns of the Soul" when even under pressure from IPX, he deletes the part of his report that talks about the discovery of the lost tribe of Dureena's people, and what he does to save his ex-wife in "The Rules of the Game." Eilerson's not so bad.

Peter Woodward was particularly outstanding - it's not easy to effectively portray a character who is as over the top as Galen without venturing into camp.

Galen was my favorite character from the get go, and still is. Some people, especially in the UK, can't stand Peter Woodward as Galen, and find him highly annoying. It seems to be a US/UK difference.

I didn't particularly like Gideon, Eilerson or Matheson when I saw Crusade in first run on TNT in 1999, but I've grown to like them all. The characters I like the least have always been Capt. Lochley (who always seems stiff to me) and Dr. Chambers. I've always liked Dureena. Trace Miller improved greatly in "Ruling from the Tomb."

The other eight episodes continually show the grubby pawmarks of the network. The opening fistfight in War Zone, in particular, was so out of universe for JMS - and I understand that particular scene was insisted upon by TNT.

As other people can tell you here and elsewhere, I am not one to reflexively defend TNT. (Good grief, is that ever an understatement! ) However, I think, "The Path of Sorrows," an episode from "the rest of the series," was quite good, and in fact, one of the best they made. I rate The "Path of Sorrows" slightly higher than "Racing the Night" or "The Memory of War."

Of the eight episodes after the five grey uniform episodes, I think the following come through pretty much without the "grubby pawmarks of the network":

ôThe Long Roadö
ôThe Well of Foreverö (JMS did not do what TNT wanted with Dureena and Mr. Jones, and I thought most of the dialogue was great. The bit with The Fen was well, ...cheapening.)
ôThe Path of Sorrowsö (Yes, TNT wanted the subtitles, but I didn't find that particularly bad. Would have preferred it done with audio on the alien's part, as via telepathy.)
ôPatterns of the Soulö
ôRuling from the Tombö (Didn't care for this ep. but I don't see TNT's influence.)

To be honest, I can see why TNT cancelled it. They like their drama safe and secure and Crusade was downright subversive (as was B5). I'm actually amazed they green-lighted it in the first place. It's a pity that it wasn't financed by someone like the Sci-Fi Channel or HBO, who tend be a bit more daring . . . and hence more successful.

TNT cancelled Crusade for purely business reasons. Their traditional audience doesn't like sci-fi, and by and large the sci-fi loving audience does not like traditional TNT fare. The audiences are pretty much mutually exclusive, and so neither Babylon 5 or Crusade was building an audience for TNT. Crusade did not get cancelled because of Crusade, itself. Crusade got cancelled because TNT is not a sci-fi friendly network.

I think graphic novels/comic books would be great way to continue the story, but I just don't see it happening.

I think regular novels would be a better way to continue the story, but that isn't going to happen, either.

[Hal_10000]

Just Saw

I just watched Crusade for the first time. I don't know that it would have been the triumph that B5 was, but it certaintly deserved a shot. And listening to JMS's usual outstanding commentary on episode 9 made me lament that we never got to see what he had planned.

What's amazing is the difference between the "last" (first) five episodes and the rest of the series. Those other five have more of the JMS feel - big concepts, epic scale, moral dilemmas. I loved the music, the Excalibur herself and the shapes the characters were taking, although I found Eileson annoying. Peter Woodward was particularly outstanding - it's not easy to effectively portray a character who is as over the top as Galen without venturing into camp.

The other eight episodes continually show the grubby pawmarks of the network. The opening fistfight in War Zone, in particular, was so out of universe for JMS - and I understand that particular scene was insisted upon by TNT.

To be honest, I can see why TNT cancelled it. They like their drama safe and secure and Crusade was downright subversive (as was B5). I'm actually amazed they green-lighted it in the first place. It's a pity that it wasn't financed by someone like the Sci-Fi Channel or HBO, who tend be a bit more daring . . . and hence more successful.

I think graphic novels/comic books would be great way to continue the story, but I just don't see it happening.

[argonnj]

I too would love to see the return of Crusade. It seemed like all the characters had a hidden and dark past that would have slowly been revealed if the ass clowns at TNT hadn't interfered. Not to mention that I'm dying to know what the deal was with that apocalypse box that Gideon had.

[frulad]

Two produced - 'The Well of Forever' and 'Patterns of the Soul'
One unproduced - 'Value Judgments'
One assigned but as far as anybody can tell, unwritten - 'Tried and True'

Jan

Well, it would make a slim volume, but perhaps she could include an outline or brief of what the episode would have been to pad out a few more pages.

[phazedout]

we have our very own jms on the forum
so, any plans for a 5-year arced series produced by an evil telvision company (perhaps named after a certain red-tailed mammal with a fondness for chickens?)
Phaze
on the "never knowingly on topic, digressions are fun" ID

[Jan]

Sure...me. Jan M. Schroeder



Jan