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  • #16
    Originally posted by Lunan
    been awhile since i read the silmarillian but arn't the elves the numenorians?
    The Numenorians are the men of Gondor...

    Their ancesters helped defeat Morgoth in the first age and they were given the Island of Numenor to live on and an increased lifespan as a reward. Sauron tricked them into trying to invade the blessed land and it was sunk with those who escaped founding Gondor/Arnor.
    Who are you?
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    • #17
      Originally posted by moreorless
      Taken in isolation I'd say that section actually suits Lord of the Rings a little better as one of the central themes is decline, whether its the Elves, the Dwarves or the Numenoreans.
      Yes, indeed, the poem fits LotR quite well in many respects (though perhaps not the "match'd with an aged wife" part) - one could easily see Aragorn saying this in his declining years, though the ships had all sailed and he could not leave.

      Certainly, for Sheridan, the notion of "going for a Sunday drive" is well-matched by Tenneyson's
      "my purpose holds
      To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
      Of all the western stars, until I die.
      It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
      It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
      And see the great Achilles, whom we knew"
      (substituting Kosh, perhaps, for Achilles).

      Certainly the whole "beyond the Rim" and "down to the Sea" analogies to "into the West" are not accidental.
      I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by moreorless
        The Numenorians are the men of Gondor...
        More technically...

        If I remember the Sil at all correctly, the "gods" had an unforseen problem after defeating Morgoth. Namely, elves and humans mixing and makin' babies. So they gave this "unplanned" race a choice. The Numenorians were the branch of the half-elven race that chose their human heritage after the fall of Morgoth, and thus became long-lived, powerful, and wise, all elvish traits, but still mortal. So elves are in there somewhere. The branch of half-elven that chose their elven blood became immortal and timeless - the High Elves that would go on to start forging Rings of Power - but were forced to hear the call of their homeland and inevitably leave Middle Earth and return to Valinor.

        Either path led to the eventual removal of their kind from Middle Earth, by death or departure, which was the whole point of the choice sadly. The last vestiges of both those races were seen in Elrond, Galadriel, and Aragorn.

        I don't know why I babbled on this long but I figured I'd try and get the whole of it right (and who knows if I did that...)
        Radhil Trebors
        Persona Under Construction

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        • #19
          Originally posted by grumbler
          Yes, indeed, the poem fits LotR quite well in many respects (though perhaps not the "match'd with an aged wife" part) - one could easily see Aragorn saying this in his declining years, though the ships had all sailed and he could not leave.

          Certainly, for Sheridan, the notion of "going for a Sunday drive" is well-matched by Tenneyson's
          "my purpose holds
          To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
          Of all the western stars, until I die.
          It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
          It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
          And see the great Achilles, whom we knew"
          (substituting Kosh, perhaps, for Achilles).

          Certainly the whole "beyond the Rim" and "down to the Sea" analogies to "into the West" are not accidental.
          I was only reffering to the final lines as used in the show but that does fit very well too. I spose thats not too supprizing given that all the works draw on the same classical inspiration.
          Who are you?
          What do you want?
          What is the average inflight speed of an unladened swallow?

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          • #20
            Also Z'ha'dum is damn close to Khazad-d¹m or what the Dwarves called the Mines of Moria.
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            • #21
              Originally posted by Phil Harmonic
              Also Z'ha'dum is damn close to Khazad-d¹m or what the Dwarves called the Mines of Moria.
              Yes, this was deliberate on JMS's part. Like Gandalf, Sheridan would die there and return after encountering "the Eldest." Sheridan the White, anyone?
              I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Radhil
                More technically...

                If I remember the Sil at all correctly, the "gods" had an unforseen problem after defeating Morgoth. Namely, elves and humans mixing and makin' babies. So they gave this "unplanned" race a choice. The Numenorians were the branch of the half-elven race that chose their human heritage after the fall of Morgoth, and thus became long-lived, powerful, and wise, all elvish traits, but still mortal. So elves are in there somewhere. The branch of half-elven that chose their elven blood became immortal and timeless - the High Elves that would go on to start forging Rings of Power - but were forced to hear the call of their homeland and inevitably leave Middle Earth and return to Valinor.

                Either path led to the eventual removal of their kind from Middle Earth, by death or departure, which was the whole point of the choice sadly. The last vestiges of both those races were seen in Elrond, Galadriel, and Aragorn.

                I don't know why I babbled on this long but I figured I'd try and get the whole of it right (and who knows if I did that...)
                Actually, the Edain that went to Numenor were not half-elven, only their Royal Family was. Bog-standard Numenorians were descendants of the men who had aided the Elves in Middle Earth, and were entirely "mortal" in their makeup, though granted extended lives in honor of their sacrifices against Morgoth. I don't think that there are any equivalents to the Numenoreans in B5, though there ARE Rangers much like the Numenorian-decended rangers of the LotR.

                The High-elves that would forge the Rings of Power were fully elven; they were the Noldor, who had rebelled against the "Gods" to fight Morgoth, and they either couldn't return (those who had killed elves in the rebellion) or would not (being too proud to submit and crave pardon). Galadrial herself only earns the end of her exile by turning down the Ring when Frodo offers it to her. Arguably, the Minbari fill this role, since they also engaged in a "holy war" that caused them to justify to themselves the commitment of terrible acts. Delenn, like Galadrial, sacrifices power and learns humility to atone for her part in starting the bloodbath.
                I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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