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  • Joseph DeMartino
    replied
    Originally posted by Dipper
    Where do you get that figure from ? Vir became the Emperor around the time when David was kidnapped, and at that time he was in his early teens 12-13, and when B5 blew up, he was in his twenties.
    All of the dates in the Centauri trilogy are off by about a year, IIRC, apparently the result of Peter David's being given a timeline with a typo in it. Then there's the business of Minbari years vs. Earth years. But David Sheridan was around 16 Earth years old when the Urn opened, he got his Keeper and everybody ended up on Centauri Prime for the events we glimpse in "War Without End" and In the Beginning. He was born late in 2262 and Londo dies sometime in 2278. Babylon 5 was destroyed in 2281, 20 years after Sheridan's death on Z'ha'dum.

    These dates are established in dialogue and by on-screen titles in the episode and the movies, quite independent of David Sheridan's age. (In "WWE" Londo tells Sheridan it has been 17 years since the Shadows were defeated, which we know happened in 2261, and an on-screen graphic in ItB gives the year of the framing story as 2278. In "Midnight on the Firing Line", set in January 2258, Londo tells Sinclair that he and G'Kar will strangle each other to death "twenty years from now." Finally, Lorien tells Sheridan and Delenn that barring illness or injury Sheridan will live 20 years, no more. Sheridan was brought back to life in January 2261, so we know he dies in 2281. (This is also verfied by the last volume of the Psi Corps trilogy.)

    That means the station was destroyed a mere 3 years after Vir became emperor. And since the station would have been effectively obsolete for several years before anyone actually got around to destroying it (trust me, I work for the government and I know what the speed of bureaucracy is), it would be truer to say, "B5 became obsolete before Vir became emperor" (even if not "way before") than the reverse.

    Regards,

    Joe
    Last edited by Joseph DeMartino; 11-29-2006, 02:42 AM.

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  • Dipper
    replied
    Where do you get that figure from ? Vir became the Emperor around the time when David was kidnapped, and at that time he was in his early teens 12-13, and when B5 blew up, he was in his twenties.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I read the Centauri trilogy.

    -Dip

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  • vacantlook
    replied
    Originally posted by Dipper
    ...Vir became Emperor way before B5 became obsolete.
    Vir became Emperor about two to three years before B5 was blown up. I wouldn't call that "way before".
    Last edited by vacantlook; 11-28-2006, 07:37 PM.

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  • prometheous
    replied
    Personally I always read the IA as being an EU type organisation (given that each EU government is really the soverign entity that tries to uphold certain common goals on defence, trade, laws etc but when it comes down to it, the British, French and Germans will do what they damn well please) rather than some sort of revision of the US federal government. Since this matter is never really made implicit in the B5 series it's up to the individual to imagine it the way they want (at least until lost tales) with the proviso that the lack of representatives can be seen as a minor oversight that niggles at the obsessive fan (no digs I am one) or simply uneeded in the federal type proposal

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  • Joseph DeMartino
    replied
    Originally posted by Garibaldi's Hair
    Of course, the United Kingdom is also a government and not an organisation, and we have ambassadors from all over the world living and working here and representing their nations ...

    But they are not members of Her Majesty's goverment, whereas the Humans, Minbar, Narn, Drazi, etc. (but not the Centauri) were constituent members of the IA. The Drazi rep(s) to the IA would be more like an MP or a senator than an ambassador.

    Disagree. The IA would have both representatives (as in the case of Ta'Lon, from one of the member states) and ambassadors (in the case of Vir, who is not from a member-state). There would be need of someone for those roles from both Narn and the Centauri Republic.
    Florida is a sovereign state under the U.S. Constitution. It sends representatives and two senators to Washington as members of the government. It does not also send an ambassador to the United States because it is one of the United States.

    If it were true that hostile governments have no ambassadors, then the USSR and USA would not have had ambassadors to each other's countries during the Cold War.
    ??? Sorry, but that is nonsense. To suggest that because something happens in case "A" it must happen exactly the same way in cases "B", "C" and "D" is ludidcrous and certainly not something suggested by my post. The U.S. and the U.S.S.R. never got into a shooting war with one another, and for reasons of their relative power deemed it too dangerous not to have full diplomatic relations. But there were plenty of Communist satellites that had no ambassadors to or from the United States. (Cuba still has none.) Members to the IA bombed parts of Centauri Prime flat. Londo made it clear that he and his people wanted nothing further to do with the organization and withdrew from it. Again, this is more like a state seceding from the Union than a country breaking off diplomatic relations with another country. When South Carolina seceded from the United States it lost its Congressmen and Sentaors, who returned home. It didn't "recall its amabassadors"

    There may, indeed, have been some sort of organization of the consular officers on B5, but B5 was not independent - it was the property (on loan from the EA) of the IA. No one would send ambassadors, I don't think, to a mere IA base
    Not after Sheridan and Delenn left, it wasn't, and that's the time period we're discussing. It reveted to Earth control and Vir did indeed represent the Centauri as ambassador to B5. You really need to read (or re-read) the Centauri Trilogy.

    Sure some of this is speculation. But it is speculation based on what is said and shown in canon sources, and I believe a reasonable extrapolation from that material. Some of your objections are based on contradicting things that are given in canon sources, and therefore unpersuasive in my view.

    Regards,

    Joe

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  • Dipper
    replied
    Originally posted by grumbler
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. When Vir was shown on B5, it was because Sheridan was still there. Vir left B5 to get involved in the machinations of the counter-Drakh conspiracy, but we don't know where the Centauri embassy was located after that.
    Actually, the Centauri Trilogy tells what Vir did between S5 ending and him becoming the Emperor. He stayed most of the time on B5 and later going about the galaxy and Centauri Prime fighting the Drakh in his own way with the help of the Technomages. Vir became Emperor way before B5 became obsolete.


    -Dip
    Last edited by Dipper; 11-28-2006, 03:08 AM.

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  • Garibaldi's Hair
    replied
    Of course, the United Kingdom is also a government and not an organisation, and we have ambassadors from all over the world living and working here and representing their nations ...

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  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
    The Centauri Trilogy does not indicate that Vir (or Ta'lon, for that matter) ever went to Minbar.
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. When Vir was shown on B5, it was because Sheridan was still there. Vir left B5 to get involved in the machinations of the counter-Drakh conspiracy, but we don't know where the Centauri embassy was located after that.

    Again, the IA is a government, not a diplomatic orgainization. So nobody would send an ambassador to it.
    Disagree. The IA would have both representatives (as in the case of Ta'Lon, from one of the member states) and ambassadors (in the case of Vir, who is not from a member-state). There would be need of someone for those roles from both Narn and the Centauri Republic. The IA is much more like the EU than it is to any government - it has some military and diplomatic assets, and its own budget, but has no sovereignty that we are aware of.

    Earth and Minbar would each have representatives to the IA, as would all the other worlds. As president and vice president Sheridan and Delenn would have to represent the interests of the Alliance as a whole, not their home planets. (Geroge Washington did not also serve as senator from Viriginia when he was elected president.) Earth would also have an ambassador to Minbar, but this would have had nothing to do with the IA.
    And this would amount to picking the nit that I said "ambassador" and not "representative" when I mentioned Earth. Okay, you "got" me.

    The Centauri, who withdrew from the IA, would have had no representation to the Alliance at all, and given their hostility to the other individual governments, it is unlikely that they would have had formal diplomatic relations with the Minbari or anyone else.
    If it were true that hostile governments have no ambassadors, then the USSR and USA would not have had ambassadors to each other's countries during the Cold War. Vir is referred to in "Legions of Fire" as the Centauri "Ambassador" on B5 during the period after the ascension of Mollari and the Centauri departure from the IA. There is no reason whatever to suppose that the Centauri didn't have an ambassador to the IA after he left, and much reason to suppose that they would (to arrange visas and facilitate communications, if nothing else).

    Their mission to B5 would have been one of the few points of contact with the larger galaxy remaining to them, and therefore doubly valauble. Both Earth and the IA, meanwhile, would have probably seen some value in keeping some form of the B5 council in being in order to deal with the inevitable disputes among the various races locally. Since the council would exist outside and independent of the IA, and aboard an EA military installation, it would be a distinct diplomatic entity.
    This is pure speculation. There may, indeed, have been some sort of organization of the consular officers on B5, but B5 was not independent - it was the property (on loan from the EA) of the IA. No one would send ambassadors, I don't think, to a mere IA base, and there would be nothing for them to "vote on." They would assist nationals in trouble and whatnot (a traditional role of consulates) but wouldn't represent anything in and of themselves. Think of the many foreign consulates in, say, San Francisco. The collective consular officers there don't get together and vote on anything.

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  • AmyG
    replied
    Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
    The Centauri Trilogy does not indicate that Vir (or Ta'lon, for that matter) ever went to Minbar.
    Thanks, I meant to nitpick that myself. Ta'lon, and not T'Lon. They're Narn, not Vulcans.

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  • Joseph DeMartino
    replied
    Originally posted by grumbler
    I rather suspect that Vir and T'Lon also made their way to Minbar, leaving at most a consular office on B5 (perhaps manned by humans, as we see consular offices run by locals today). The Minbari would not need ambassadors on Minbar, and Earth probably sent an ambassador there itself, since it would not necessarily want Sheridan to represent its interests.
    The Centauri Trilogy does not indicate that Vir (or Ta'lon, for that matter) ever went to Minbar. Again, the IA is a government, not a diplomatic orgainization. So nobody would send an ambassador to it.

    Earth and Minbar would each have representatives to the IA, as would all the other worlds. As president and vice president Sheridan and Delenn would have to represent the interests of the Alliance as a whole, not their home planets. (Geroge Washington did not also serve as senator from Viriginia when he was elected president.) Earth would also have an ambassador to Minbar, but this would have had nothing to do with the IA.

    The Centauri, who withdrew from the IA, would have had no representation to the Alliance at all, and given their hostility to the other individual governments, it is unlikely that they would have had formal diplomatic relations with the Minbari or anyone else. Their mission to B5 would have been one of the few points of contact with the larger galaxy remaining to them, and therefore doubly valauble. Both Earth and the IA, meanwhile, would have probably seen some value in keeping some form of the B5 council in being in order to deal with the inevitable disputes among the various races locally. Since the council would exist outside and independent of the IA, and aboard an EA military installation, it would be a distinct diplomatic entity.

    Regards,

    Joe

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  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by WorkerCaste
    Yup. But if that was all it was, Vir and T'Lon wouldn't be needed as replacements for Londo and G'Kar.
    I rather suspect that Vir and T'Lon also made their way to Minbar, leaving at most a consular office on B5 (perhaps manned by humans, as we see consular offices run by locals today). The Minbari would not need ambassadors on Minbar, and Earth probably sent an ambassador there itself, since it would not necessarily want Sheridan to represent its interests.

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  • DeMonk
    replied
    Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
    People who can write ought to be telling their own stories instead of wasting time and energy on stuff they can never hope to sell or see published.* And people who can't write, shouldn't. )
    One has to start somewhere. At least with fanfiction you get some response whether it stinks or not, don't you?

    Besides, it's a harmless (unless you count the ones who laugh themselves to death reading the stuff) and cheap occupation.

    M. Christine (leaving the writing wisely to others)

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  • Joseph DeMartino
    replied
    I raised the question of Delenn's successor at B5TV and nobody can remember any canon source that even touched on the idea. I figured that between that site and this one, where we have people who collected the comics, the magazines, original scripts and at least one (KoshN at B5TV) who has virtually memorized the novels, someone would know if the topic had ever been broached. All inquiries have come back negative. Nothing in the books, nothing in the comics, no marginal note in any script that anybody's seen. A little bit of fanfic, apparently, but that obviously doesn't count. (I've never read any B5 fanfic and have no desire to. I read just enough Trek stuff in the 70s to be turned off by the whole concept. People who can write ought to be telling their own stories instead of wasting time and energy on stuff they can never hope to sell or see published.* And people who can't write, shouldn't. )

    Regards,

    Joe

    * "No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money." - Samuel Johnson

    "I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters." - Frank Lloyd Wright

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  • Joseph DeMartino
    replied
    I'd love to know what JMS's original Babylon Prime idea was...
    For those not familiar with this, "Babylon Prime" was an early idea for a possible post-5-year-arc spin-off series that was part of JMS's original notes for Babylon 5, the version where Sinclair remained with the series for all five years. I suspect that by the time JMS came to the end of S5 and rejected a 6th season or a direct sequel concerning the station, that things had changed too much for a lot of "Babylon Prime" to apply.

    After we finished the movie, but before we got the series going, WB
    asked to see a breakdown on this five-year arc thingie. So I wrote a
    six or seven page, single spaced outline of the ENTIRE FIVE YEARS with
    Sinclair still in place. The document makes for fascinating reading
    when compared with the series as it developed. NOT ONLY THAT, but the
    same document has a brief outline for A POTENTIAL BABYLON 5 SEQUEL
    SERIES, which would have been entitled BABYLON PRIME.

    JMS on usenet 12 Sept 2005
    In any case, anyone who buys all 14 volumes of the script books will find out when the free bonus 15th volume is released, since it will contain that original 6 or 7 page breakdown.

    Regards,

    Joe

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  • Joseph DeMartino
    replied
    Yeh but the EU/NATO has ambassadors because it is an organisation in its own right with its own issues.
    And so is the Babylon 5 Council. But like NATO, and unlike the EU, the B5C is not in any sense a "government" or "higher authority" to which political states must answer. Like the U.N. it can pass resolution, but it depends on member states to enforce them, and really can't do anything if they choose not to.

    At the end of the series the alliance is set up to do what B5 did
    No, the IA is setup to do what B5 couldn't do. The loosely linked League of Non-Alligned worlds was dissovled, and a new organization was created the linked them all much more closely. It would be like replacing the U.N. something much closer to an actual world government. The B5 Council was never anything like a galactic government.

    So what organisation does the post alliance B5 belong to that needs it to have its own diplomatic core?
    B5 doesn't belong to an organization, it is one. The Babylon Council oversees the neutral, unclaimed, territory of Grid Epsilon. At least in the early transition period to the IA, the B5 Council would still have been useful and therefore still be maintained. The representatives to the IA would have been less ambassadors than legistlators and members of the government.

    Regards,

    Joe

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