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  • CRONAN
    replied
    Yeah, maybe all that stuff is true, but i HATE the people who shove a camera in front of your face and harrass you with questions, the people who camp outside your backyard and snap pictures of you in the pool; the people who spit in your face and insult you in front of millions; theres a point when it stops being dignified and descends into the realms of of shameless gossip and gross violation.

    In some ways I sympathize ; It must be degrading not standing up for your principles on a day to day basis.

    Glad im not a journalist.

    Imagine what it would be like if they only gave us the facts and let the public think for themselves.

    Well as to the media having some consequences for some of the things they say I should think its a mixed bag. If some slimy corporation is actually doing these things then people have a right to know about it. On the other hand if their supspicions are false then publishing a story like that serves no one.

    In principle I believe the truth is the bottom line here. The Truth is not subjective. There is only one Truth. People should be allowed the freedom to make their decisions based on the Truth.
    Last edited by CRONAN; 04-04-2004, 12:28 AM.

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  • SpooRancher
    replied
    Dan Randall?

    Is colonyearth Dan Randall?

    (JUST KIDDING, I am NOT trying to make any judgements on the membership here, trying to make a little joke to lighten things up, but I did notice some similar things in the last post to what Dan Randall said in "Illusion of Truth" when he was trying to convince Sheridan to go along with the interviews)

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  • colonyearth
    replied
    Originally posted by Lord Scotty
    Okay, I stayed out of this for awhile, but I have to jump in. How in the world can you say anything. You work in the News industry. All reporters are full of crap, they cover up just as much crap as the politicians do. You admitted that yourself, as you said stuff doesn't make it on the air. So that means you know about things that aren't being given to the rest of the public. Maybe you should share that info before judging others.

    Regards,

    Lord Scotty
    First of all I said I work in the news industry...I'm not in a position to decide what goes out. And when I said I see things, I meant that producers choose not to run stories or angles in their show due to time or whatever reason...but I get to see it all.

    I work in this industry out of necessity...not desire. I hate FOX News because it's so damn right wing it's scary. Everyone who works for FOX that I know is aware of the right slant on everything and hates it.

    We alter things when we can without loosing our jobs. My 5pm producer won't run a FOX news package on Iraq anymore, he will run the CNN package because it's more informative and less biased.

    And don't say all reporters are full of crap...do you know, personally, all of the reporters in the world? If so, you know a lot of people. There are great reporters and bad reporters as in any profession. But realize that no reporter is fully responsible for the content of his or her story. Producers, EP's, News Director's and any other number of hands and opinions are in the story. Some items of information are left out, not because they don't want the public to know...believe me sometimes they're pissed they can't put information in a story...but it's the fear of being sued (which so often happens these days because people are so thin-skinned it's ridiculous). That's another person who sometimes gets their hands on a story...and god help us it's true...the lawyers.

    Yes, I get to see the entire press-conference...I see the statement in it's full context without being cut down or trimmed for bias. Yes, I see information come over the wires that for some reason or another no one ever seems to make a point of (which I oftentimes question). You can see much of what I see everyday...but most Americans don't want to see it...they prefer life with their blinders on. It makes it soooo much easier to be apathetic. You and anyone else can watch C-Span or any other number of sources for full press conferences, etc. You could write off for copies of laws and decisions handed down by judges, etc. People don't want to. It's out there; it's public domain, but no one wants to dig for the truths or see the writing on the wall. I have no decision in what hits the air at my station, I sometimes which I did. But I see it all everyday. The stuff that most people don't want to see or know....so yeah, I'm pretty well informed and if I could tell the world the pieces of the big puzzle I see sometimes, I would. Well, I was, until I was just attacked. Don't attack, until you get facts...please.

    So anyway, don't blame reporters...they're doing the best they can with what they're given. And remember, especially thanks to FOX News Channel, TV news has become mostly infotainment, not news. It's what will grab the ratings.

    Real news went out with Walter Cronkite I'm sorry to say.

    CE

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  • Kevin
    replied
    Hey guys, this has gone terribly off-topic... so please calm down a bit about it or move it over to the off-topic section and take out those knives and go for it

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  • Lord Scotty
    replied
    Originally posted by colonyearth
    Thank you Radhill...it's nice to know there are others out there who look at the writing on the wall and see that it raises some serious concerns and questions...not to mention the hair on the back of one's neck.

    And to say that Bush has been compassionate...on anything...makes me seriously concerned for anyone who can convince themselves of that. Sorry, ZHDD, he's no compassionate. Even members of his own party have said as much, and have backed away from him on certain issues. This man has done more to divide this country than any president since Kennedy over civil rights. And at least Kennedy was on the correct side of that issue.

    Stretching the truth? That's what you call it? Where exactly did you get those rose-tinted glasses you wear? A Republican give those to you did he?

    And as for Kennedy...I didn't say that Stone's film was historically accurate...I said it tends to make sense to me. And there is no proof of the theory you mentioned anymore than any other theory. Was Oswald a shooter, maybe...maybe not, but I gaurantee you he was not the only one.

    Hide your head in the sand much?

    CE

    PS: ZHDD, please quit responding to me as though I'm some ignorant, un-intelligent, un-informed, SF geek, conspiracy theorist, kid. I don't appreciate the condecending tone (that seems to be a right wing tool). I happen to be a very intelligent, well educated adult, and since I work in the news business, I tend to hear and see a lot of things that never make it to air. So I'm pretty well up to date on current affairs. I like to stay informed on what Bush is gonna f*ck up next. He's dangerous...and if you can't see that...I'm sorry. I just hope to God that he's not re-elected...because I am seriously concerned with just what might happen if he is. Is Kerry perfect? No, but he's not Bush, and he's got a more level head than Bush.

    I'm not getting drawn into this any further. If you ever want to learn more and get your head out of the sand and actually look at the facts and the frightening conclusions even common sense point to...let me know. And a word of advice, quit using FOX News Channel for you statistics and polls...they're skewed to the right...I know...I work for them.

    This isn't personal...but if you keep it up...it will be.
    Okay, I stayed out of this for awhile, but I have to jump in. How in the world can you say anything. You work in the News industry. All reporters are full of crap, they cover up just as much crap as the politicians do. You admitted that yourself, as you said stuff doesn't make it on the air. So that means you know about things that aren't being given to the rest of the public. Maybe you should share that info before judging others.

    Regards,

    Lord Scotty

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  • colonyearth
    replied
    Originally posted by grumbler
    Huh? I proposed that you read a book and be a little more infromed about the theories of the assassination and you make this "you own" theory?

    Read the book, and then we can debate it (in a seperate thread, to delight the others). All we can agree on in this thread is that Oliver Stone's account is a complete fiction, derived from his self-stated wish to "change the memory of America."
    Sorry, got semantically incorrect there. By "your own" theory I was referring to the theory you mentioned in your post. And it technically still is a theory.

    What's the book again? Would love to check it out. But I hope you don't think it's going to change my mind about government secrets and lies and the star chambers of politics. Or the military industrial complex either...cause that shit just scares the willies out of me.

    CE

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  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by colonyearth
    OH, and laughter, huh? Glad I could make you laugh at a statement that your own theory supports. I "gauranteed" that Oswald wasn't the only shooter. By your theory, he wasn't. There was another shooter...I never said anything about the intentions of the other shooter, did I?
    Huh? I proposed that you read a book and be a little more infromed about the theories of the assassination and you make this "you own" theory?

    Read the book, and then we can debate it (in a seperate thread, to delight the others). All we can agree on in this thread is that Oliver Stone's account is a complete fiction, derived from his self-stated wish to "change the memory of America."

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  • colonyearth
    replied
    Originally posted by grumbler
    Of course it "made sense" to you. It was fiction! Babylon 5 makes more sense than either JFK or the Warren Commision.

    And I must admit that your "guarantee" that Oswald wasn't the only shooter, followed by the ad hominim "Hide your head in the sand much?" made me laugh out loud.

    But I don't want to debate this issue, I just wanted to point out that there was a scholarly work on the topic you mentioned that answers all the questions without requiring impossible conspiracies or made-up facts.
    The theory you put forth is only that as well...a theory. There is no proof either way. And quit with the inferrences that I'm some gullible dupe who believes everything he's told on TV or in movies. All I'm saying is that Oswald, if he acted, did not act alone...whether that be a SS agent to f*cked up, or more than one shooter...the "official report" was the biggest work of fiction of all in regards to JFK's assasination.

    On some freakish level, we're agreeing here. While I can learn of this newest theory you're telling me about and say, at least from what you've said it sounds possible (though I personally haven't read all the facts and evidence), I will not accept it as absolute fact either. My point was, there was something covered up...and to be honest..."scholarly work" sounds nice...but is still someone's personal conclusions based on the evidence as they see it. Ok they're an intelligent and educated person. So are a lot of other people. What some call impossible, others call possible. And as for facts...I don't for one second believe that all of the facts have been presented, or that some of the evidence wasn't destroyed. Too many questions still left unanswered.

    I personally don't think we'll ever know exactly what happened. It's one of those great mysteries.

    CE

    OH, and laughter, huh? Glad I could make you laugh at a statement that your own theory supports. I "gauranteed" that Oswald wasn't the only shooter. By your theory, he wasn't. There was another shooter...I never said anything about the intentions of the other shooter, did I?

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  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by colonyearth
    And as for Kennedy...I didn't say that Stone's film was historically accurate...I said it tends to make sense to me. And there is no proof of the theory you mentioned anymore than any other theory. Was Oswald a shooter, maybe...maybe not, but I gaurantee you he was not the only one.

    Hide your head in the sand much?

    CE
    Of course it "made sense" to you. It was fiction! Babylon 5 makes more sense than either JFK or the Warren Commision.

    And I must admit that your "guarantee" that Oswald wasn't the only shooter, followed by the ad hominim "Hide your head in the sand much?" made me laugh out loud.

    But I don't want to debate this issue, I just wanted to point out that there was a scholarly work on the topic you mentioned that answers all the questions without requiring impossible conspiracies or made-up facts.

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  • colonyearth
    replied
    Originally posted by Radhil
    99.99% of what is wrong with this country right there. In my opinion, anyway. That more people aren't making a fuss about it is one of the reasons we're going downhill.



    Actually it's more like 50% of the country now. Any way you slice it, half the country's stupid. That scares me.



    Huh? Er, how? Democrats haven't been asking for anything up until lately. Now they just want the country back.



    Bush has taken quite a few steps in this direction. Some can be taken into context as war time necessary evils, and others much less so. Either way, it worries me far more that these steps are taken in a war that - according to the same people behind it - seems to have no definite end.

    *sigh* Yeah, I had to comment again. I'll go hang myself over here now....

    Thank you Radhill...it's nice to know there are others out there who look at the writing on the wall and see that it raises some serious concerns and questions...not to mention the hair on the back of one's neck.

    And to say that Bush has been compassionate...on anything...makes me seriously concerned for anyone who can convince themselves of that. Sorry, ZHDD, he's no compassionate. Even members of his own party have said as much, and have backed away from him on certain issues. This man has done more to divide this country than any president since Kennedy over civil rights. And at least Kennedy was on the correct side of that issue.

    Stretching the truth? That's what you call it? Where exactly did you get those rose-tinted glasses you wear? A Republican give those to you did he?

    And as for Kennedy...I didn't say that Stone's film was historically accurate...I said it tends to make sense to me. And there is no proof of the theory you mentioned anymore than any other theory. Was Oswald a shooter, maybe...maybe not, but I gaurantee you he was not the only one.

    Hide your head in the sand much?

    CE

    PS: ZHDD, please quit responding to me as though I'm some ignorant, un-intelligent, un-informed, SF geek, conspiracy theorist, kid. I don't appreciate the condecending tone (that seems to be a right wing tool). I happen to be a very intelligent, well educated adult, and since I work in the news business, I tend to hear and see a lot of things that never make it to air. So I'm pretty well up to date on current affairs. I like to stay informed on what Bush is gonna f*ck up next. He's dangerous...and if you can't see that...I'm sorry. I just hope to God that he's not re-elected...because I am seriously concerned with just what might happen if he is. Is Kerry perfect? No, but he's not Bush, and he's got a more level head than Bush.

    I'm not getting drawn into this any further. If you ever want to learn more and get your head out of the sand and actually look at the facts and the frightening conclusions even common sense point to...let me know. And a word of advice, quit using FOX News Channel for you statistics and polls...they're skewed to the right...I know...I work for them.

    This isn't personal...but if you keep it up...it will be.

    Last edited by colonyearth; 03-31-2004, 09:25 AM.

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  • Radhil
    replied
    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
    Well, Colony, here is a little secret: ALL politicians lie and have secrets. It doesn't matter what party or what level of either side they are.
    99.99% of what is wrong with this country right there. In my opinion, anyway. That more people aren't making a fuss about it is one of the reasons we're going downhill.

    And your opinion that we can't afford another four years of W. means either you are right and the opinions of 60% of the country disagree with you and are therefore stupid, or you are wrong and just part of the minority opinion.
    Actually it's more like 50% of the country now. Any way you slice it, half the country's stupid. That scares me.

    What befuddles me is this: Bush has been the most "compassionate" GOP president to Democrat wishes, but they HATE him more than any other past GOP'er.
    Huh? Er, how? Democrats haven't been asking for anything up until lately. Now they just want the country back.

    But if I even thought he or any president, whether they be a Repub, Dem, Green, Libertarian, Whig -- I don't care -- was planning on turning the US into a police state, there is no way I would support them. But the "lies" you speak of are not of the conspiracy type...they are just truth stretchings of the standard political type.

    Sorry in advance for those who hate politics in this thread.
    Bush has taken quite a few steps in this direction. Some can be taken into context as war time necessary evils, and others much less so. Either way, it worries me far more that these steps are taken in a war that - according to the same people behind it - seems to have no definite end.

    *sigh* Yeah, I had to comment again. I'll go hang myself over here now....

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    Well, Colony, here is a little secret: ALL politicians lie and have secrets. It doesn't matter what party or what level of either side they are. And your opinion that we can't afford another four years of W. means either you are right and the opinions of 60% of the country disagree with you and are therefore stupid, or you are wrong and just part of the minority opinion.

    What befuddles me is this: Bush has been the most "compassionate" GOP president to Democrat wishes, but they HATE him more than any other past GOP'er. I wrote a thing on this a month back, called "Bush Losing the Cold War." Now, this isn't to insinuate that Dems are as bad as Commies or that they are true enemies, but when you appease and let your opponents get to you...they want more. Just like if we ignored the terrorists, they wouldn't have left us alone. I, for one, don't rate W. in my top five favorites of all time. But he is strong on my big issues, which are defense and low taxes, so I will vote for him. But if I even thought he or any president, whether they be a Repub, Dem, Green, Libertarian, Whig -- I don't care -- was planning on turning the US into a police state, there is no way I would support them. But the "lies" you speak of are not of the conspiracy type...they are just truth stretchings of the standard political type.

    Sorry in advance for those who hate politics in this thread.

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  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    <<I would hope you understood I was being intentionally facetious. But, I have heard some conspiracy theorists making similar parallels.>>

    The far right radio shock jock in town here talks about it every morning with different guests, the most notorious of which is Alex Jones, a quack from Houston. One guy on his show frequently says there is no Al Qaida.

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  • grumbler
    replied
    Actually, CE, I have taught a course on forensics for years and one of the students' favorites is "The Trial of Lee Harvey OSwald" which assumes Oswald survives Ruby's bullet and goes on trial.

    Natrally, i have read most of the books and web sites on the topic, and so i know a little bit about the case. Lee Harvey oswald definately shot JFK and Connelly. Of that there is no reasonable doubt.

    Now, as to fired the fatal shot, there are only two theories that stand the test of time:
    1. OSwald did
    2. The Secret Service agent in the car behind JFK did, by accident.

    Now, if you find the second theory preposterous, read Mortal Error by Bonar Menniger. While it seems highly unlikely )based only on the fact that the shot would have been freakishly unlucky) it does explain everything - why the coverups, why the head wound took on the form it did, and why the SS refused to allow the Dallas autopsy (and why the Bethesda autopsy was changed). And once you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

    Now, the most important thing is to not listen at all to Oliver Stone. He has admitted that he made stuff up to put into the movie, and that he altered the Zapruder film shown. His movie is a work of fiction, based only very loosely on the facts. If you found it entertaining, that is all well and good, but to take anything from an Oliver Sone movie as more than accidently "true" is to misunderstand his purpose.

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  • colonyearth
    replied
    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
    <<Just because you don't like the things that President Clarke....eh, Dubbya is doing once he's there, and the things that he has Psi Corps doing.....eh, the CIA, I mean....does not mean that he is not the legitimate leader of the country.>>

    ...oooooookay.

    Anyways, talk about something scary. Today, an editorial from the Washington Post a few weeks back was in my paper today. It was written by Jack Valenti, MPAA prex. He essentially touched upon what we were talking about in this thread all weekend. About History Channel (among others) telling history from one viewpoint, and it becoming canon in future generations. He brought into question a documentary about LBJ that called the former president a murderder. Valenti also talked about the JFK movie and its fictional elements.

    I found it on the WP site:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Mar19.html
    On this point, many people disagree. JFK's assasination is one of those great mysteries. Will we ever know the truth? I doubt it, because of the star chamber politics I mentioned in my previous post. They cover their tracks too well.

    I will simply say this...Lee Oswald did not kill JFK. Who did? I don't know. Was Oswald in on it or set up in expert fashion? I don't know. But the Warren Commission's findings are ludicrous, end of story. Personally, and I'm no conspiracy theorist here, I tend to find Oliver Stone's theory in the film JFK to make the most sense. But do I take it or anything else I hear on the History Channel or anywhere else as absolute fact? No.

    Unless you were there...you will never know the complete truth about anything. History Channel or history book...both can be wrong and have often been known to be.

    Besides, history is always slanted by those who record it.

    CE

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