Vorlons and Shadows

[EarthandBeyond]

I always was kind of abit buthered with the tought that, both of this high advanced civilization, left the Galaxy unpunished for there horrible deeds during the last stages of the Shadow War.
They both destroyed the whole planets. Wiped out so many people. And then just dissapired.
They couldnt have gotten to far though, could they? For just 20 years later, Lorien did came back for Sheridan.

[Dr Maturin]

And Lorien seemed to be quite complacent with their actions in the end.

[Jan]

Hi, EarthandBeyond, welcome!

I always was kind of abit buthered with the tought that, both of this high advanced civilization, left the Galaxy unpunished for there horrible deeds during the last stages of the Shadow War.

Who could have punished them, though? None of the younger races could have. There's the possibility that the other First Ones who had gone beyond the Rim before they did might have held some kind of tribunal, I suppose. I doubt we'll ever find out unless JMS tells us.

They both destroyed the whole planets. Wiped out so many people. And then just dissapired.
They couldnt have gotten to far though, could they? For just 20 years later, Lorien did came back for Sheridan.

They went beyond the Galactic Rim with Lorien. No telling how far away that was, but remember that they have technology far beyond ours so it may not have taken them long.

Jan

[vacantlook]

Who could have punished them, though?

Exactly. The younger races couldn't even come close to defeating the Shadows or Vorlons militarily, so how exactly could they enforce any form of punishment?

[SmileOfTheShadow]

I always was kind of abit buthered with the tought that, both of this high advanced civilization, left the Galaxy unpunished for there horrible deeds during the last stages of the Shadow War.
They both destroyed the whole planets. Wiped out so many people. And then just dissapired.
They couldnt have gotten to far though, could they? For just 20 years later, Lorien did came back for Sheridan.

I know that toward the end of that arc, the vorlons and the shadows were made to be sorta equals and a ying and yang kinda deal, but I don't think the vorlons ever went and killed innocent people, did they? Maybe when they went and started wiping out shadow controlled planets, but that's kinda part of warfare, and the Centauri had alligned themselves with the shadows.

Second, They were both under the impression that they were doing the right thing, helping the younger races to evolve. I think they cared very little for the individual people even after they left. They were just content that we evolved far enough to be left on our own because Sheridan convinced them of such. Which meant that they considered their actions babysitting and they don't really have remorse for it because it seems insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Third...Jan's right...we couldn't enforce that.

Jon

[vacantlook]

I don't think the vorlons ever went and killed innocent people, did they? Maybe when they went and started wiping out shadow controlled planets, but that's kinda part of warfare, and the Centauri had alligned themselves with the shadows.

"Coriana 6 is a low-tech planet; the Shadows force them to let them have a base there." -- Sheridan to the Vorlons

But that didn't stop the Vorlons from trying to blow the planet up, only the other First Ones blowing up the Planetkiller before it could fire kept Coriana in existance. Willingness to aid the Shadows of those they blew up meant nothing to the Vorlons because they stopped caring for the younger races and only cared about defeating the Shadows.

They were both under the impression that they were doing the right thing, helping the younger races to evolve. I think they cared very little for the individual people even after they left.

The thing about the whole conflict between the Shadows and the Vorlons is that for both of them it stopped being about the younger races developing into a place of greatness, and it became about which of the two of them were right. Their focus stopped being on the younger races and was only on themselves.

[SLerman]

I don't think the vorlons ever went and killed innocent people, did they?

I would say that they never really targeted innocent people. Their objective wasn't to kill whole planets of innocent people, it was to destroy the Shadows. They just didn't care about who else was caught in the blast (what modern militaries call "collateral damage").

[Garibaldi's Hair]

The Vorlons started killing planets before the Shadows did, and for most of the time the Shadows were simply acting on their conviction that the way to encourage development among the younger races was to get them to make war with each other.

As evidenced in the way the Narn/Centauri war was engineered.

[Macbeth]

"There are things in the Universe billions of years older than either of our races. They are vast, timeless, and if they are aware of us at all, it is as little more than ants and we have as much chance of communicating with them as an ant has with us. We know. We've tried and we've learned that we can either stay out from underfoot or be stepped on."
-- G'Kar to Sakai in Babylon 5:"Mind War"

[Dr Maturin]

Yet they communicated with them fine. Unless she was referring to something else.

[SmileOfTheShadow]

"Coriana 6 is a low-tech planet; the Shadows force them to let them have a base there." -- Sheridan to the Vorlons

But that didn't stop the Vorlons from trying to blow the planet up, only the other First Ones blowing up the Planetkiller before it could fire kept Coriana in existance. Willingness to aid the Shadows of those they blew up meant nothing to the Vorlons because they stopped caring for the younger races and only cared about defeating the Shadows.



The thing about the whole conflict between the Shadows and the Vorlons is that for both of them it stopped being about the younger races developing into a place of greatness, and it became about which of the two of them were right. Their focus stopped being on the younger races and was only on themselves.

I stand corrected. I've always thought of the shadows as worse than the vorlons, but I'm starting to change my mind based on your guys' analysis of things heh.

But I guess it's more of the Vorlons just lost perspective than were actually trying to be malicious. I think the shadows "acting on their convictions" as I saw on another post doesn't change the fact that their convictions have a serious morality problem to them. So I dunno...

Jon

[Jan]

But I guess it's more of the Vorlons just lost perspective than were actually trying to be malicious. I think the shadows "acting on their convictions" as I saw on another post doesn't change the fact that their convictions have a serious morality problem to them. So I dunno...

Both the Shadows and Vorlons were manipulative in the extreme. The Shadows worked behind the scenes to manipulate the younger races into war and evolution by conflict but the Vorlons manipulated the races on a genetic level to create telepaths. We know that they intended the teeps to be used in part to discombobulate the Shadow vessels but what else might they have intended or used them for? One could argue that they were also promoting evolution by using genetic manipulation.

Jan

[SmileOfTheShadow]

Both the Shadows and Vorlons were manipulative in the extreme. The Shadows worked behind the scenes to manipulate the younger races into war and evolution by conflict but the Vorlons manipulated the races on a genetic level to create telepaths. We know that they intended the teeps to be used in part to discombobulate the Shadow vessels but what else might they have intended or used them for? One could argue that they were also promoting evolution by using genetic manipulation.

Jan

Do the ends justify the means?

Jon

[vacantlook]

But I guess it's more of the Vorlons just lost perspective than were actually trying to be malicious. I think the shadows "acting on their convictions" as I saw on another post doesn't change the fact that their convictions have a serious morality problem to them. So I dunno...

I don't think the Shadows were actively trying to be malicious either. The way Justin described the Shadows' activities, I think that the Shadows thought that their way of coerced chaos to promote evolution truly was the best thing for the younger races (at least that they thought that way before both they and the Vorlons started making the whole thing be about which of them was right and not about the success and triumph of the younger races). Also the way Lorien spoke about the Shadows coming back to Z'ha'dum because he was there and the Shadows thinking being there near him was some misplaced demonstration of respect they had for him made it seem as if he viewed the Shadows not as some big boogedy-boogedy big evil but as people who have lost their way to be pitied. (Similar pity is something that G'Kar eventually commented that the Narns should feel for the Centauri, viewing the Centauri as having become a lost people.)

Personally, I think both the Shadows and the Vorlons had serious morality problems. The Shadows thought that the younger races should be encouraged to fight one another, and the Shadows working to spark wars was the way they chose to spur the in-fighting along. The Vorlons thought that the younger races should abdicate all of their own will and fight and die for whatever reason the Vorlons wanted them to fight and die; the Vorlons did not want the younger races to think for themselves. Both perspectives are useful, but either one alone is ineffective. The two perspectives have to co-exist within each individual person with each side tempering the other to keep each in balance. The Shadows and the Vorlons became too extreme and too radical, and they lost that balance.

[DeMonk]

Personally, I think both the Shadows and the Vorlons had serious morality problems. ... The Shadows and the Vorlons became too extreme and too radical, and they lost that balance.

It makes one wonder what we would find on the Vorlon planet when we "deserved access" after a million years!!!